Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mahulk_sl · Jan 9, 2014

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
You are making this way harder then it needs to be. As for boss mobs that drop uber gear, you can't have them always drop their weapon, but you want their fight to include the weapon of course. The way to handle this is have broken pieces of their weapon in the loot table that can be used for crafting when he doesn't actually drop his weapon. Simple.

As for non-boss mobs that don't always have their weapon on them, your example was an elite warrior who spawned with out his sword. Ok. If you run in to an elite warrior who does NOT have their sword on them, then that's a pretty stupid warrior OR a warrior caught off guard. Either way, that warrior does not have their weapon, so they can't fight with their weapon. What's the next best thing, they use their fists. They might even perform berserking moves because they are fighting with out a weapon of choice and become desperate.

Ultimately, you see it as a static mob that does one thing the same way everytime. Hence, you believe the elite warrior should fight with a weapon effect no matter if they are carrying a weapon or not.

The way I see it, this mob is more dynamic my way. If you see an elite warrior carrying a weapon, you know he is going to fight with his weapon. If you see an elite warrior with out a weapon, you don't know what he might do. He is upredictable. The fight is dynamic.

From a technical stand point, what we really have here behind the scenes is two different versions of the spawn with the same name. One is a sword wielding elite warrior that fights with traditional sword wielding techniques. The other one is a fist wielding elite warrior that will pull off more monk like moves and could go in to a low defense high offense berserker stance when he gets to low health.

Want to see a raid where the goal all along is to try and get rid/hide/destroy the weapon of choice of the last boss before you finally face him off giving you a chance to beat him.

ImmoralityTX_sl · Jan 9, 2014

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
From a technical stand point, what we really have here behind the scenes is two different versions of the spawn with the same name. One is a sword wielding elite warrior that fights with traditional sword wielding techniques. The other one is a fist wielding elite warrior that will pull off more monk like moves and could go in to a low defense high offense berserker stance when he gets to low health.

What about the weapon "breaking" of sorts during the encounter. So X mob you engage drops a blade, you pull him and it's in his hand. Some time during the engage a roll of sorts occurs as he takes damage. The roll fails and the blade breaks, at this point it doesn't drop. Or it drops a fragment which goes back to your crafting point.

zzeris · Jan 9, 2014

Luxer_sl said:
Vanguard actually had a pretty good system called Equipment Expertise where every piece of gear had a % value based on your level. You could wear all your gear as long as all the %'s added to up <100% - so you could equip gear and weapons higher than your level but they would be a higher % than standard level gear.

For example, if a weapon dropped that was lvl 30 but you were level 25 you could equip it but you might have to unequip a couple pieces of gear (or wear much lower lvl) to do so.

I like this idea. I like twinking but it has to be limited and managed. As we talk about invalidating content and shrinking the world, twink gear is almost as bad as flying mounts. The camping of certain spots, the handholding this gear stands for, and the basic devaluing of early content doesn't sit well with me. Every alt I had after I got a few items like the Fungi wore that and completely tore through about 30 levels in no time. There's a reason high level spells were limited in who they could target for this very reason. Do we want to play the game, or get to endgame? And if we want to get to endgame, they why aren't we playing WoW? Speeding up the early game and making yourself more powerful is extremely fun. With certain gear limits, I'm all for it.

gogojira_sl · Jan 9, 2014

Item degradation is a dumb annoyance. Please don't implement. Thanks.

Tuco · Jan 9, 2014

shabushabu_sl said:
I would love to see a quest or something in a dungeon where party members get captured.

This is especially fun when they get captured because of their own idiocy and have to fight their way out with the other idiots

I was Heigan dancing champion in my guild in the 40man naxx.

zzeris · Jan 9, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
I hope there is alot of environmental danger in the game. Drowning and burning obviously, but possibly actual pit traps with poison spikes and stuff like that. GW2 mini-dungeons have some features like this and its good fun. That said, player induced damage to my character is only acceptable if I have a way to retaliate.

On that note, I am unhappy with PvP being a stretch goal. PvP was a stretch goal for WoW and that turned out pretty crappy.

I'm all for environmental damage and weapons breaking. I love falling through pits, trap, stc. I want to die from falls. I want weapons to break so I have to find a smith(PC).

bixxby · Jan 9, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
I like this idea. I like twinking but it has to be limited and managed. As we talk about invalidating content and shrinking the world, twink gear is almost as bad as flying mounts. The camping of certain spots, the basic handholding this gear stands for, and the basic devaluing of early content doesn't sit well with me. Every alt I had after I got a few items like the Fungi wore that and completely tore through about 30 levels in no time. There's a reason high level spells were limited in who they could target for this very reason. Do we want to play the game, or get to endgame? And if we want to get to endgame, they why aren't we playing WoW? Speeding up the early game and making yourself more powerful is extremely fun. With certain gear limits, I'm all for it.

What the fuck? No no no. Twinking is fun BECAUSE it makes the low level easy and turns your guy into a monster. You're using the argument that shitty devs (ie post luclin) used to start the whole level locked gear shit we have now. That's shit. Having a level 1 character using an end game raid weapon you were able to loot because your 5 man crew snuck into a raid zone and ganked a dragon is sweet titties.

ImmoralityTX_sl · Jan 9, 2014

bixxby_sl said:
What the fuck? No no no. Twinking is fun BECAUSE it makes the low level easy and turns your guy into a monster. You're using the argument that shitty devs (ie post luclin) used to start the whole level locked gear shit we have now. That's shit. Having a level 1 character using an end game raid weapon you were able to loot because your 5 man crew snuck into a raid zone and ganked a dragon is sweet titties.

Damn straight it is. Nothing like feeling like a god of low levels. If you can earn the gear by loot/purchase (of some sorts) why the hell not be able to use it. You've earned it.

Tuco · Jan 9, 2014

Also fuck item degradation, fuck limited numbers of arrows, and fuck being unable to powerlevel and twink people.

Powerleveling is another element of socialization that has been stripped from MMOs. In EQ if you needed to roll an alt and had a friend with a druid/mage/shaman/whatever they could sit there and help you blow past levels. In WoW you could run people through an instance and get some gear to help them but generally they were on their own.

Twinking is less sociable (In fact a twink often has no reason to group, ruining that aspect) but it does add a level of variety to the game that modern MMOs lack. So what if Gandalf and Bilbo twink the shit out of Frodo, at least it allows him to be a badass hobbit with a dagger.

Amaru_sl · Jan 9, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
Also fuck item degradation, fuck limited numbers of arrows, and fuck being unable to powerlevel and twink people.

Powerleveling is another element of socialization that has been stripped from MMOs. In EQ if you needed to roll an alt and had a friend with a druid/mage/shaman/whatever they could sit there and help you blow past levels. In WoW you could run people through an instance and get some gear to help them but generally they were on their own.

Its weird, I normally disagree with anything that makes lower levels quick and easy BUT there was something really fun about power leveling. A quick and easy way to hang out with some high level friends and enjoy the game. However if it wasn't in the game I wouldn't be all that upset. Overall my theory is that as long as it promotes socialization and not soloization I am all for it.

zzeris · Jan 9, 2014

ImmoralityTX_sl said:
Damn straight it is. Nothing like feeling like a god of low levels. If you can earn the gear by loot/purchase (of some sorts) why the hell not be able to use it. You've earned it.

WTF did you earn? Man I just lit that motherfucking named 15 ghoul with my badass level 60 and Fiery Sword of Preening dropped. My level one warrior is going to be so bad ass! I earned this shit! Time to go camp another level 15 named that low levels groups could be fighting instead. But I'm a badass and I earned this shit Yo!

Twinking only promotes solo playing. Powerleveling is what you want if you are going to socialize. Two different things and I'm all for powerleveling.

Abefroman · Jan 9, 2014

Allowing people to powerlevel and twink promotes that social shit everyone says they love. Having a level 50 buff cast on you from some cleric as he is power leveling his rogue is good shit. It also keeps high level players in low level zones making it easier for newcomers to get into the game. There is nothing wrong with making players feel powerful and having fun. Everything doesn't need to be based around item budgets and spreadsheets.

Soygen · Jan 9, 2014

Powerleveling and twinking is awesome. It's the items farmers/gold sellers that suck. How do you have one, without the other abusing it? That's the challenge.

Tuco · Jan 9, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
WTF did you earn? Man I just lit that motherfucking named 15 ghoul with my badass level 60 and Fiery Sword of Preening dropped. My level one warrior is going to be so bad ass! I earned this shit! Time to go camp another level 15 named that low levels groups could be fighting instead. But I'm a badass and I earned this shit Yo!

Big difference is that in vanilla EQ you couldn't get a fiery sword of preening from a level 15 mob. One of the top twink items was a FBSS that gave ~20% haste and was reasonably difficult to get.

If you build a world with no instancing and little amount of loot then twinking becomes a lot more costly and rare. But if the loot flows like water then every alt will cruise around like a golden god.

Abefroman_sl said:
Allowing people to powerlevel and twink promotes that social shit everyone says they love.

I would contend that twinking reduces social shit. If you share XP in a group a twink often reduces their XP drastically in a group with nontwinks.

Abefroman · Jan 9, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
Twinking only promotes solo playing. Powerleveling is what you want if you are going to socialize. Two different things and I'm all for powerleveling.

Twinking and powerleveling go hand and hand. MMO gamers don't half ass shit when powerleveling. They stack the deck.

Abefroman · Jan 9, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
I would contend that twinking reduces social shit.

I always saw people twinking and powerleveling at the same time. You can't make people socialize, but if you give higher levels a reason to be in lower level zones you end up meeting people. At least that is how I met a lot of people when I played EQ. I got into my raiding guild because I met those peoples twinks while they powerleveled them. I play with those people to this very day in MMOs. Your mileage will vary i guess.

Xaxius · Jan 9, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
WTF did you earn? Man I just lit that motherfucking named 15 ghoul with my badass level 60 and Fiery Sword of Preening dropped. My level one warrior is going to be so bad ass! I earned this shit! Time to go camp another level 15 named that low levels groups could be fighting instead. But I'm a badass and I earned this shit Yo!

This is why level progression need to die in the proverbial fire. Not only does it completely alienate new players over the lifetime of the game, but it creates ridiculous nonsense like the above... trivializing huge gobs of content. Again, low max level and make it all about skill and item progression. Ditch No Drop for all but top tier end game loot and let the masses bask in the greatness that is the 2nd coming of MMOs.

zzeris · Jan 9, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
Big difference is that in vanilla EQ you couldn't get a fiery sword of preening from a level 15 mob. One of the top twink items was a FBSS that gave ~20% haste and was reasonably difficult to get.

If you build a world with no instancing and little amount of loot then twinking becomes a lot more costly and rare. But if the loot flows like water then every alt will cruise around like a golden god.

I would contend that twinking reduces social shit.

And that's the limited kind of twinking I like. I said that I like some amount of twinking but stuff like the Fungi went too far. I also liked that early EQ gear was so poor that even plate armor was valuable at some point. Gear with just a few stats had real value. There's a difference in feeling like a god from gear and feeling like a god because your buddies are PLing you. I prefer the one where you actually have to find someone to help you feel like a god.

Tuco · Jan 9, 2014

Abefroman_sl said:
I always saw people twinking and powerleveling at the same time. You can't make people socialize, but if you give higher levels a reason to be in lower level zones you end up meeting people. At least that is how I met a lot of people when I played EQ. I got into my raiding guild because I met those peoples twinks while they powerleveled them. I play with those people to this very day in MMOs. Your mileage will vary i guess.

Your assumption is that if they weren't twinked they wouldn't be getting powerleveled. I would argue that they would be more likely to be getting powerleveled.

If I'm a popular person in my guild and need to roll an alt, if I can twink it I can just cruise through the levels and maybe someone will help me but maybe they will be too busy or I won't want to waste their time. But if I can't twink it? I'd say "Fuck you come help me. Leveling this cleric is slow as hell and I need to get up there to start that alt-CH chain bro."

bixxby · Jan 9, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
And that's the limited kind of twinking I like. I said that I like some amount of twinking but stuff like the Fungi went too far. I also liked that early EQ gear was so poor that even plate armor was valuable at some point. Gear with just a few stats had real value. There's a difference in feeling like a god from gear and feeling like a god because your buddies are PLing you. I prefer the one where you actually have to find someone to help you feel like a god.

That's cool, but you're wrong. You think a guy soloing with good gear is worse than a druid pulling an entire zone to PL his friend?

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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