Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

orionTZ1998 · May 22, 2018

Korrupt said:
Every MMO has raid testing, who cares if they pay for testing? This happens in every mmo and has no bearing on real rankings when it comes down to it. Some WoW conglomerate led by the same guys who all hang out still will form and consume these raids as fast as humanly possible with no practice for the 10th game in a row. Even thats a stretch, they arent going to have 2 classes ready for launch I think I read? Why would you concern yourself over raiding with complex and scripted raids that would need to be completed pre-release for major testing.

Id be super happy with hard dungeons and just a clean game on release. Thats something we havent ever seen pretty much at all.

Well it's not just access to raid mobs... it's access to quests, itemization, geography, mob spawns, class builds, and every other element that needs to be understood to succeed in an MMORPG.

The reason paid beta is problematic is that it creates a barrier of entry to the game for people who didn't feel obliged to drop a few hundred for early access. Most gamers will find the prospect of playing at launch less appealing knowing they are playing against people who have already min/maxed the game. Perhaps VR did an analysis somewhere (I doubt it) that determined they would rather collect up front revenue from beta sales than have more subs at launch. Either way, it's a consideration they're going to have to deal with.

zzeris · May 22, 2018

Zaide said:
They've said that their focus is primarily on the grouping game, and building fun/challenging content at that level. It's been emphasized that while raid mobs will exist it represents a very small minority for them because the game is about meaningful group level gameplay.

I don't really understand the concept of people saying they're launching without X number of classes though. I mean they're launching without infinite classes, like Blood Mage, Death Knight, Samurai any other shit you can think of. So does every game ever. The classes that people are talking about are Bard and Necromancer. Now they're saying that looking at current development they'll most likely have the Bard in for launch too. So really we're looking at just the Necromancer. Was there a time when Necromancer was listed as a class they'd have in at launch? If not I can't see the criticism because you could always choose to allocate more development resources and time into creating new classes.

Necro was always my favorite class so I hope it's not a long wait. The list of classes is plenty tho for a really small development team. I wasn't sure they could pull off the original count much less the baker's dozen.

orionTZ1998 , I don't think they have the resources to even worry about that too much. Their biggest worries will be releasing with enough content, period, and having a stable game with stable servers.

Grim1 · May 22, 2018

orionTZ1998 said:
Well it's not just access to raid mobs... it's access to quests, itemization, geography, mob spawns, class builds, and every other element that needs to be understood to succeed in an MMORPG.

The reason paid beta is problematic is that it creates a barrier of entry to the game for people who didn't feel obliged to drop a few hundred for early access. Most gamers will find the prospect of playing at launch less appealing knowing they are playing against people who have already min/maxed the game. Perhaps VR did an analysis somewhere (I doubt it) that determined they would rather collect up front revenue from beta sales than have more subs at launch. Either way, it's a consideration they're going to have to deal with.

Your complaint might be valid if it were directed at the industry as a whole, but you only are complaining about Pantheon. It invalidates your whole argument and just illustrates that you are nothing more than a tool.

More importantly, NOBODY FUCKING CARES about your concerns except the other retards like you who spend all of their time obsessing over something they hate. Pathetic.

orionTZ1998 · May 22, 2018

Grim1 said:
Your complaint might be valid if it were directed at the industry as a whole, but you only are complaining about Pantheon. It invalidates your whole argument and just illustrates that you are nothing more than a tool.

What other MMORPGs are selling beta access? Feel free to apply my concerns to those as well.

Grim1 · May 22, 2018

orionTZ1998 said:
What other MMORPGs are selling beta access? Feel free to apply my concerns to those as well.

Pretty much every mmo under development atm. But you couldn't be bothered to know that. You hate Pantheon so much it fills up your every waking moment and your nightmares. Sucks to be you.

Oh, and by your logic, early access is P2W and so are xp potions, mounts, etc. Get over yourself you entitled cuck.

edit: Almost forgot one of the most P2W items of all time (again, by your logic), WoW's level boosts. Why aren't you railing against them? Yeah that's right, we know why.

orionTZ1998 · May 22, 2018

Grim1 said:
You hate Pantheon so much it fills up your every waking moment and your nightmares. Sucks to be you.

Oh, and by your logic, early access is P2W and so are xp potions, mounts, etc.

Correct.

Get over yourself you entitled cuck.

edit: Almost forgot one of the most P2W items of all time (again, by your logic), WoW's level boosts. Why aren't you railing against them?

Because it's not 2016 and this thread topic is Pantheon.

Mat'hir Uth Gan · May 22, 2018

Zaide said:
They've said that their focus is primarily on the grouping game, and building fun/challenging content at that level. It's been emphasized that while raid mobs will exist it represents a very small minority for them because the game is about meaningful group level gameplay.

I don't really understand the concept of people saying they're launching without X number of classes though. I mean they're launching without infinite classes, like Blood Mage, Death Knight, Samurai any other shit you can think of. So does every game ever. The classes that people are talking about are Bard and Necromancer. Now they're saying that looking at current development they'll most likely have the Bard in for launch too. So really we're looking at just the Necromancer. Was there a time when Necromancer was listed as a class they'd have in at launch? If not I can't see the criticism because you could always choose to allocate more development resources and time into creating new classes.

I've been hammering them on the official forums a little bit on the class issue, but only because I enjoy playing the "Control" Archetype and they have sold this game as a "quaternity" where the four archetypes (Healer, Tank, DPS, and Control) are equal. Yet, they'd rather use resources on the 4th and 5th DPS class (Ranger/Summoner) than on the 2nd Control class (Bard). That seems ridiculous to me that they could even consider launching a quaternity themed game without having an equal amount of choices for each archetype. There are at least three class choices for each of the tank, heal, and dps archetypes, but only ONE option (Enchanter) for the control archetype. That's ludicrous. Not only should they "bench" the Ranger and Summoner until the Bard is done, but they should probably get the Necromancer in as the 3rd Control class as well, and then start worrying about the Ranger and Summoner.

I'm probably playing a Bard if it's anything like the EQ1 Bard or EQ2 Dirge, so I'm following the Bard situation and while it was really nice to hear on the Bazgrim interview that the Bard is looking good for launch, Joppa has been walking that back a lot in the more recent interviews and postings. Now it's back to, "we'll try to get it in but no promises". So that kind of sucks. The Necro doesn't even seem like it has a chance to get in before launch.

I think they need to launch with three tanks (Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior), three heals (Shaman, Druid, Cleric), three control (Enchanter, Bard, Necromancer), and five DPS (Rogue, Wizard, Monk, Ranger, Summoner). If the standard group makeup is one of each quaternity with the final two spots being a class capable of off-tanking and a class capable of off-healing, they still have some work to do, especially in terms of off-healing capable classes. Right now you have either blowing a spot on another full healer or potentially having a Paladin. Maybe they can build the Necro into a quasi-Blood Mage that heals through damage and that would give another off-heal option. But it's looking to me like the healer archetype is going to be the most important once again with most groups doing challenging content having two healers in the group. Healers are generally the least played classes, so that's not a great thing. I think they need to focus on getting a DPS/Control class in game that can heal through damage to where it can function as a legitimate off-healing class. It seems the Necro would be pretty easy to do this with. I think they need to prioritize getting in both the Bard and Necro as early in beta as possible. It's a missed opportunity if they do not.

Mat'hir Uth Gan · May 22, 2018

orionTZ1998 said:
Well it's not just access to raid mobs... it's access to quests, itemization, geography, mob spawns, class builds, and every other element that needs to be understood to succeed in an MMORPG.

The reason paid beta is problematic is that it creates a barrier of entry to the game for people who didn't feel obliged to drop a few hundred for early access. Most gamers will find the prospect of playing at launch less appealing knowing they are playing against people who have already min/maxed the game. Perhaps VR did an analysis somewhere (I doubt it) that determined they would rather collect up front revenue from beta sales than have more subs at launch. Either way, it's a consideration they're going to have to deal with.

How do you differentiate paid and unpaid betas? Games have to get a limited amount of folks in to test their game, but not everyone can until perhaps the Open Beta. So, it seems that no matter what some folks are going to get a theoretical "head start" in learning the game. For most of the past twenty years, that's been the luck of the draw, but I don't see any difference in outcome and effect from getting randomly selected to participate in a beta and paying to participate. Either way, X amount of people are going to see the game early. I don't see how it is pay2win. It just seems like they are replacing random sign ups with people that really want the game to succeed. I think the paid beta approach probably brings in more serious and better testers, which should help all of us in the long run.

Zaide · May 22, 2018

orionTZ1998 said:
Well it's not just access to raid mobs... it's access to quests, itemization, geography, mob spawns, class builds, and every other element that needs to be understood to succeed in an MMORPG.

The reason paid beta is problematic is that it creates a barrier of entry to the game for people who didn't feel obliged to drop a few hundred for early access. Most gamers will find the prospect of playing at launch less appealing knowing they are playing against people who have already min/maxed the game. Perhaps VR did an analysis somewhere (I doubt it) that determined they would rather collect up front revenue from beta sales than have more subs at launch. Either way, it's a consideration they're going to have to deal with.

It's not up front revenue vs more subs. It's having the money to create a game vs never making the game.

etchazz · May 22, 2018

orionTZ1998 said:
Well it's not just access to raid mobs... it's access to quests, itemization, geography, mob spawns, class builds, and every other element that needs to be understood to succeed in an MMORPG.

The reason paid beta is problematic is that it creates a barrier of entry to the game for people who didn't feel obliged to drop a few hundred for early access. Most gamers will find the prospect of playing at launch less appealing knowing they are playing against people who have already min/maxed the game. Perhaps VR did an analysis somewhere (I doubt it) that determined they would rather collect up front revenue from beta sales than have more subs at launch. Either way, it's a consideration they're going to have to deal with.

God damn, you're a whiny faggot.

BoozeCube · May 23, 2018

I think many of us hate pay to win games but forking over money for alpha/beta/early access is probably the least egregious example of anything close to a P2W format. Games need testers get over it.

Still a fool and his money, I think some people got swindled good for $1,000 cloth map and bug testing.

Arden · May 23, 2018

I consider p2w anytime you can pay real money to circumvent in game mechanics that those who don't pay real money can't circumvent. That's a long way of saying when you can buy in game shit with out of game money, it's p2w.

In early access you aren't circumventing anything. You are still climbing the same mountain as me, you're just getting to base camp a little earlier which gives you an advantage. It's the guys that skip the climb altogether and take the fucking elevator to the top of the mountain that bother me.

Cukernaut · May 23, 2018

Mat'hir Uth Gan said:
I've been hammering them on the official forums a little bit on the class issue, but only because I enjoy playing the "Control" Archetype and they have sold this game as a "quaternity" where the four archetypes (Healer, Tank, DPS, and Control) are equal. Yet, they'd rather use resources on the 4th and 5th DPS class (Ranger/Summoner) than on the 2nd Control class (Bard). That seems ridiculous to me that they could even consider launching a quaternity themed game without having an equal amount of choices for each archetype. There are at least three class choices for each of the tank, heal, and dps archetypes, but only ONE option (Enchanter) for the control archetype. That's ludicrous. Not only should they "bench" the Ranger and Summoner until the Bard is done, but they should probably get the Necromancer in as the 3rd Control class as well, and then start worrying about the Ranger and Summoner.

I'm probably playing a Bard if it's anything like the EQ1 Bard or EQ2 Dirge, so I'm following the Bard situation and while it was really nice to hear on the Bazgrim interview that the Bard is looking good for launch, Joppa has been walking that back a lot in the more recent interviews and postings. Now it's back to, "we'll try to get it in but no promises". So that kind of sucks. The Necro doesn't even seem like it has a chance to get in before launch.

I think they need to launch with three tanks (Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior), three heals (Shaman, Druid, Cleric), three control (Enchanter, Bard, Necromancer), and five DPS (Rogue, Wizard, Monk, Ranger, Summoner). If the standard group makeup is one of each quaternity with the final two spots being a class capable of off-tanking and a class capable of off-healing, they still have some work to do, especially in terms of off-healing capable classes. Right now you have either blowing a spot on another full healer or potentially having a Paladin. Maybe they can build the Necro into a quasi-Blood Mage that heals through damage and that would give another off-heal option. But it's looking to me like the healer archetype is going to be the most important once again with most groups doing challenging content having two healers in the group. Healers are generally the least played classes, so that's not a great thing. I think they need to focus on getting a DPS/Control class in game that can heal through damage to where it can function as a legitimate off-healing class. It seems the Necro would be pretty easy to do this with. I think they need to prioritize getting in both the Bard and Necro as early in beta as possible. It's a missed opportunity if they do not.

Nice points, I get where you are coming from with this. Perhaps there are hybrid control classes that are able to handle these paradigms in ways we didnt expect that they have planned. (IE Dire lord able to do some necro-like cc? I heard rogue is able to do some stuns?). I have no idea just speculating. Ill be curious to see what they do here.

a_skeleton_02 · May 23, 2018

No MMO coming out is not going to do the paid beta, it's already cemented itself as a solid way to raise money prelaunch.

People complain about people "knowing the game" before launch like you get some prize for being first in a niche MMOs. Get over yourself.

My main concern with paid beta is the sunken cost of it. Not many people will drop $1,000 on Pantheon play it and say "oh wow I'm an idiot, this is awful" because when you are financial invested in something you are going to give it a lot of slack.

I don't know if the Pantheon people read this but if I where you I'd be giving free beta trials to people as well. Not nearly as much as the paid ones and with zero perks after launch but target some TLP people on EQ or make a website and take applications.

Free tip: make a quiz of famous EQ encounters with like multiple choice questions on various raid strategies. Don't make it obviously hard but throw in some curve balls. The gaming "press" would eat it the fuck up and you'd get tons of free press.

"Pantheon will give you Early Access but you have to pass a hardcore MMO test"

"Enter to join the Pantheon Beta if you can pass Brad Mcquaids MMO challenge"

Even if you give away 100 beta invites a drop in the bucket compared to the paid ones it will drive people to you. You can have the beta page direct to the preorder store after they apply.

Fyff · May 23, 2018

I'm not sure legally they could have you do a test on Everquest content.

ZyyzYzzy · May 23, 2018

Zaide said:
It's not up front revenue vs more subs. It's having the money to create a game vs never making the game.

And you don't see the problem with that you dumbass?

Zaide · May 23, 2018

ZyyzYzzy said:
And you don't see the problem with that you dumbass?

Care to elaborate?

Eonan · May 23, 2018

Calling backer access to Alpha/Beta Pay-to-Win is pretty disingenuous.

Early access certainly is (in a launch environment), but certainly not testing in alpha/beta.

Fyff · May 23, 2018

Lol you think people posting in this thread in a negative way are ever being genuine. That's cute.

Eonan · May 23, 2018

Fyff said:
Lol you think people posting in this thread in a negative way are ever being genuine. That's cute.

I post negatively in this thread all the time, but if you can point to where I've been disingenuous on any of my points I'd be surprised.

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