Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

ZyyzYzzy · Jul 12, 2018

Nothing beas the days of afk autoattacking on raid bosses

tyen · Jul 12, 2018

random, radial animation scroll

gLobal · Jul 13, 2018

I see a lot of discussion about raiding and skill, and I thought about it while driving to work.

Some people feel certain raids require more ‘skill’ than others. So I started comparing different encounters, and how I felt about them over time. Which one truly required more skill?

It’s a bit of a complex question, because of how encounters are tuned. Older EQ raid encounters felt like they weren’t tuned to the degree modern ones are, and seemed a bit more chaotic (to me). WoW encounters were tuned with precision.

Modern encounters are all about execution. You have a role, and you execute as efficiently as possible. You’re running a script. The success of the raid depends on its members’ ability to execute. There wasn't much else to it. You either had it or you didn’t. There isn't a heavy analytical component. I would compare this more towards the Guitar Hero side of games. Hit the right keys, at the right time. If you don’t, you fail. There is no leeway. Certainly this requires skill.

EQ encounters (through my rose-colored glasses) felt like they were tuned differently. It felt more strategic, and while there was a lot of the ‘right key at the right time’, there was also a bit of an opportunity for wild stuff to happen. It was slower for sure, but people seemed to always be examining the battle, and making split-decisions. I can remember people single-handedly saving raids. I can’t recall anything like that ever happening in WoW. You just wiped.

Thinking about it more, I came to the conclusion that WoW (and modern) encounters are designed to be video games at heart. Fast pace, timing, execution. It makes for a great video game, and requires a lot of skill, but it doesn’t seem very Role Playing.

I compare this to tabletop RPG battles, when I stop to think about the battle and consider my options. EQ seems to align more closely with tabletop RPG’s for making decisions and dumb/insane shit happens.

So that’s where I ended up. I think EQ is closer to a Role Playing Game game, whereas WoW is definitely a video game. They both require skill, but different sorts.

Laura · Jul 13, 2018

Korrupt said:
You must be a career EQ emulator player or someone who hasnt really played MMO's in depth since EQ. The huge majority of MMO's have roles, mechanics, and plenty of resource management which brings difficulty on the fly. (See WoW mythic for one example, which 98% of this thread couldnt handle). You come across like this is going to be some huge challenging game with things that haven't been done since EQ.

This is going to be EZ mode mmo raiding for slower paced folks which is fine, it doesnt need to be schilled as some messiah thats bringing back shit thats already in 98% of MMO's released and is going to be difficult.

I have played literally hundreds of MMOs non of them had ALL that in one package.
I enjoyed Aion for instanced because it had roles and the group content had monster which took a while to die but the resources were really not that important. It had no combat skills to level up, just your regular abilities and mostly are whack-a-mole chain system which is boring to me.

When was the last time you played a game where you need to 1) break a room, 2) pull, 3) monster took group effort and time to die, 4) CC was important, 5) slowing was somewhat needed, 6) it had class roles, 7) resources were important, 8) you didn't need to spend 20 hours soloing quests before your first "dungeon", 9) no instanced dungeons, 10) Spells could fizzle / your hits mostly likely will miss 11) had 12 distinguished classes and 9 races and focuses on PvE not PvP... I can go on.

Name one game which had ALL that which was released in the last 10 years.

Warmuth · Jul 13, 2018

Raiding always seemed like way more of a grind to me than leveling ever did. I’d rather levelling take time and the world be full of interesting stuff than breezing through some shit quests in two weeks to hit max level and raid.

Ambiturner · Jul 13, 2018

gLobal said:
I see a lot of discussion about raiding and skill, and I thought about it while driving to work.

Some people feel certain raids require more ‘skill’ than others. So I started comparing different encounters, and how I felt about them over time. Which one truly required more skill?

It’s a bit of a complex question, because of how encounters are tuned. Older EQ raid encounters felt like they weren’t tuned to the degree modern ones are, and seemed a bit more chaotic (to me). WoW encounters were tuned with precision.

Modern encounters are all about execution. You have a role, and you execute as efficiently as possible. You’re running a script. The success of the raid depends on its members’ ability to execute. There wasn't much else to it. You either had it or you didn’t. There isn't a heavy analytical component. I would compare this more towards the Guitar Hero side of games. Hit the right keys, at the right time. If you don’t, you fail. There is no leeway. Certainly this requires skill.

EQ encounters (through my rose-colored glasses) felt like they were tuned differently. It felt more strategic, and while there was a lot of the ‘right key at the right time’, there was also a bit of an opportunity for wild stuff to happen. It was slower for sure, but people seemed to always be examining the battle, and making split-decisions. I can remember people single-handedly saving raids. I can’t recall anything like that ever happening in WoW. You just wiped.

Thinking about it more, I came to the conclusion that WoW (and modern) encounters are designed to be video games at heart. Fast pace, timing, execution. It makes for a great video game, and requires a lot of skill, but it doesn’t seem very Role Playing.

I compare this to tabletop RPG battles, when I stop to think about the battle and consider my options. EQ seems to align more closely with tabletop RPG’s for making decisions and dumb/insane shit happens.

So that’s where I ended up. I think EQ is closer to a Role Playing Game game, whereas WoW is definitely a video game. They both require skill, but different sorts.

What are some examples of single players saving raids and "wild things" that doesn't apply to other MMOs?

My memory of EQ raids were initially player vs dial up connections followed by a strong core carrying mouth breathing afk auto-attackers

zzeris · Jul 13, 2018

Laura said:
I have played literally hundreds of MMOs non of them had ALL that in one package.
I enjoyed Aion for instanced because it had roles and the group content had monster which took a while to die but the resources were really not that important. It had no combat skills to level up, just your regular abilities and mostly are whack-a-mole chain system which is boring to me.

When was the last time you played a game where you need to 1) break a room, 2) pull, 3) monster took group effort and time to die, 4) CC was important, 5) slowing was somewhat needed, 6) it had class roles, 7) resources were important, 8) you didn't need to spend 20 hours soloing quests before your first "dungeon", 9) no instanced dungeons, 10) Spells could fizzle / your hits mostly likely will miss 11) had 12 distinguished classes and 9 races and focuses on PvE not PvP... I can go on.

Name one game which had ALL that which was released in the last 10 years.

First, playing literally hundreds of MMOs mean nothing. There hasn't been fifty major MMOs released and many of them weren't ever built for your specific list of wants(for a reason). Your first 8 questions are in most major releases. They were foundation parts of vanilla WoW which has been copied, in some ways, by almost everyone. It's not until #9 that you focus on aspects that were left in the dust after EQ. So, to answer your question, "How many games wanted to be a Brad McQuaid game besides one developed by Brad?" The answer is obviously none. People usually want to at least be a little unique so why would they copy all of that from a inferior selling and money making MMO group?

On the other comments, I was twice in a Arthas raid that ended with one survivor. So, in just one expansion, over a very short time period(I quit WoW after WotLK), I saw that specific equation several times. It truly isn't that unique if the raid does everything right long enough. As Ambi mentioned, EQ just needed enough good players in a raid and could win with a lot of mouth-breathers in the mix. That's not exactly epic by my standards unless you just like to see body counts.

Mat'hir Uth Gan · Jul 13, 2018

I've been on a lot of raids in various games, quite a few times in SWTOR, where your guild kills the boss with like one or two guys left. In EQ1 though, I remember times that one person would save the raid. I know I did it once while we were raiding Agnarr in BoT. Things were pretty messy after the portals and I was MT'ing Agnar on my SK, we needed time to recover and I just took off kiting him around the room for about 20 mins while the raid recovered, I just had to keep low health aggro. I also remember offtanking one of the guards during an Emperor Ssra raid and seeing one of the other offtanks struggling to stay up on his guard, so I kept inching my guard over towards where he was tanking and when he finally dropped, I HT'd it and grabbed aggro and tanked both of them while the raid killed the Emperor. I saved both of those raids, and I feel that kind of stuff happened all the time in EQ1. I also did some crazy things on raids with my Dirge in EQ2 when things got out of hand. I don't remember that kind of stuff in WoW raids, though I only did Molten Core and BWL.

goishen · Jul 13, 2018

Obligatory :

Look, just the fact that everybody's talking about the fact that there was a grind in MMO's in general is a win for me.

Siliconemelons · Jul 13, 2018

gLobal said:
I see a lot of discussion about raiding and skill, and I thought about it while driving to work.

Some people feel certain raids require more ‘skill’ than others. So I started comparing different encounters, and how I felt about them over time. Which one truly required more skill?

It’s a bit of a complex question, because of how encounters are tuned. Older EQ raid encounters felt like they weren’t tuned to the degree modern ones are, and seemed a bit more chaotic (to me). WoW encounters were tuned with precision.

Modern encounters are all about execution. You have a role, and you execute as efficiently as possible. You’re running a script. The success of the raid depends on its members’ ability to execute. There wasn't much else to it. You either had it or you didn’t. There isn't a heavy analytical component. I would compare this more towards the Guitar Hero side of games. Hit the right keys, at the right time. If you don’t, you fail. There is no leeway. Certainly this requires skill.

EQ encounters (through my rose-colored glasses) felt like they were tuned differently. It felt more strategic, and while there was a lot of the ‘right key at the right time’, there was also a bit of an opportunity for wild stuff to happen. It was slower for sure, but people seemed to always be examining the battle, and making split-decisions. I can remember people single-handedly saving raids. I can’t recall anything like that ever happening in WoW. You just wiped.

Thinking about it more, I came to the conclusion that WoW (and modern) encounters are designed to be video games at heart. Fast pace, timing, execution. It makes for a great video game, and requires a lot of skill, but it doesn’t seem very Role Playing.

I compare this to tabletop RPG battles, when I stop to think about the battle and consider my options. EQ seems to align more closely with tabletop RPG’s for making decisions and dumb/insane shit happens.

So that’s where I ended up. I think EQ is closer to a Role Playing Game game, whereas WoW is definitely a video game. They both require skill, but different sorts.

This is what I said but stated better- yay.

Mat'hir Uth Gan said:
I've been on a lot of raids in various games, quite a few times in SWTOR, where your guild kills the boss with like one or two guys left. In EQ1 though, I remember times that one person would save the raid. I know I did it once while we were raiding Agnarr in BoT. Things were pretty messy after the portals and I was MT'ing Agnar on my SK, we needed time to recover and I just took off kiting him around the room for about 20 mins while the raid recovered, I just had to keep low health aggro. I also remember offtanking one of the guards during an Emperor Ssra raid and seeing one of the other offtanks struggling to stay up on his guard, so I kept inching my guard over towards where he was tanking and when he finally dropped, I HT'd it and grabbed aggro and tanked both of them while the raid killed the Emperor. I saved both of those raids, and I feel that kind of stuff happened all the time in EQ1. I also did some crazy things on raids with my Dirge in EQ2 when things got out of hand. I don't remember that kind of stuff in WoW raids, though I only did Molten Core and BWL.

In wow both those roles in a raid, may exist... but if "kite this mob during Y" was not the script- you would just fail. Off tank X mob - the mob would be specifically tuned to be a requirement of # level gear to tank and you passed or failed - there would be no room for anything else. This is attributed to tuning, encounter design restrictions and raid number restrictious.

I hated that all wow raids were "are we at Z gear score? Okay. Do we all know to press a button or move when our 300 UI add-ons tells us...okay we win"

LachiusTZ · Jul 13, 2018

Mat'hir Uth Gan said:
I've been on a lot of raids in various games, quite a few times in SWTOR, where your guild kills the boss with like one or two guys left. In EQ1 though, I remember times that one person would save the raid. I know I did it once while we were raiding Agnarr in BoT. Things were pretty messy after the portals and I was MT'ing Agnar on my SK, we needed time to recover and I just took off kiting him around the room for about 20 mins while the raid recovered, I just had to keep low health aggro. I also remember offtanking one of the guards during an Emperor Ssra raid and seeing one of the other offtanks struggling to stay up on his guard, so I kept inching my guard over towards where he was tanking and when he finally dropped, I HT'd it and grabbed aggro and tanked both of them while the raid killed the Emperor. I saved both of those raids, and I feel that kind of stuff happened all the time in EQ1. I also did some crazy things on raids with my Dirge in EQ2 when things got out of hand. I don't remember that kind of stuff in WoW raids, though I only did Molten Core and BWL.

I hero'd it up in a MC raid. Played a warlock, during the Garr fight I juggled maybe 4/5 of his adds after the other locks died.

It happened, but was rare. Our 2nd tank did it a few times. I can still remember "This is Hoangn, I've got it, Hoangn, this is Hoangn, heal Hoangn, Hoangn has it". Guy was hilarious.

Dandai · Jul 13, 2018

Xadion said:
This is what I said but stated better- yay.

In wow both those roles in a raid, may exist... but if "kite this mob during Y" was not the script- you would just fail. Off tank X mob - the mob would be specifically tuned to be a requirement of # level gear to tank and you passed or failed - there would be no room for anything else. This is attributed to tuning, encounter design restrictions and raid number restrictious.

I hated that all wow raids were "are we at Z gear score? Okay. Do we all know to press a button or move when our 300 UI add-ons tells us...okay we win"

I hated that all eq raids were "are we at Z clerics? Okay. Do we all know to press a button or move when our 300 letter macros tell us...okay we win"

gLobal · Jul 13, 2018

Ambiturner said:
What are some examples of single players saving raids and "wild things" that doesn't apply to other MMOs?

My memory of EQ raids were initially player vs dial up connections followed by a strong core carrying mouth breathing afk auto-attackers

Mat'hir Uth Gan had a few good examples. I can remember a monk stepping in, and coordinating a smooth tank handoff when the MT went down on our first Fennin Ro kill. We still nearly wiped after that, but barely did it. We ran around like idiots in PoK afterwards showing off the emblem.

I evac'd my group when I saw an imminent Fear wipe. The entire group made it out, and was < 20% remaining health when we zoned. I had this big "did I just fuck up completely?" moment, not knowing who made it and if it was the right call since no one called for it. We managed to make it back before repops and rez, it probably saved hours. There was also a lot of sporadic 'kite the boss' around until somebody gets rezzed.

Another cool thing is that you'd often find out other guilds did encounters completely differently. Most of that could be because not many shared strats, but the loose tuning allowed for that. You could adjust a bit, depending on what worked for you (aside from clerics).

Erronius · Jul 13, 2018

So, is

tyen working on this game yet?

Erronius · Jul 13, 2018

Is Pantheon supposed to be EQ 4.0?

Such memories from all the debates pre-Vanguard

Erronius · Jul 13, 2018

Going through old pics tonight, forgot I made this monstrosity (there had been a discussion about that machine that cooks eggs into 'tubes')

EDIT: this bizarre thing

Ambiturner · Jul 13, 2018

gLobal said:
Mat'hir Uth Gan had a few good examples. I can remember a monk stepping in, and coordinating a smooth tank handoff when the MT went down on our first Fennin Ro kill. We still nearly wiped after that, but barely did it. We ran around like idiots in PoK afterwards showing off the emblem.

I evac'd my group when I saw an imminent Fear wipe. The entire group made it out, and was < 20% remaining health when we zoned. I had this big "did I just fuck up completely?" moment, not knowing who made it and if it was the right call since no one called for it. We managed to make it back before repops and rez, it probably saved hours. There was also a lot of sporadic 'kite the boss' around until somebody gets rezzed.

Another cool thing is that you'd often find out other guilds did encounters completely differently. Most of that could be because not many shared strats, but the loose tuning allowed for that. You could adjust a bit, depending on what worked for you (aside from clerics).

Neither of those are examples of someone saving a raid that's unique to EQ.

Ukerric · Jul 14, 2018

Dandai said:
Do we all know to press a button or move when our 300 letter macros tell us...okay we win"

That was DBM before there was DBM...

Ukerric · Jul 14, 2018

Ambiturner said:
Neither of those are examples of someone saving a raid that's unique to EQ.

I think the best "raid save" was a near wipe to Agnarr. I don't remember the details, but one guy managed to aggro him and started kiting while someone used a rez for a cleric. Then, we started slowly rezing while Agnarr would run round and round and round in his room; dragging the corpses to the stairs where the clerics would be safe from - I think - some AOE from time to time. Rez everyone, tank get back aggro, restart the fight.

Fogel · Jul 14, 2018

Ambiturner said:
What are some examples of single players saving raids and "wild things" that doesn't apply to other MMOs?

I once fell asleep while clearing to Inoruuk and woke up just as the raid wiped and rezzed them, does that count?

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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