Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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tad10_sl said:
Sure the class system better, but Mobs were leashed so FD pulling was minimal and I ended up as an off off tank or dps. Pulling needs to be part of the design, but yes with multiple classes that can effectively pull: monk, bard, wtf, and pull in different ways.
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Solo, outdoors, exploiting leashing was pretty common, and why I'm not a fan of it. And leashing was the magic that often made FD work at all.

But in dungeons, regarding group content, leashing was of little impact. Unless you were with a really terrible group that had a Monk who'd been a monk in EQ and was thus the center of attention and loved by all for his ability to trivialize content, most groups I ever experienced didn't use FD to pull. Most groups didn't really pull at all in the sense of splitting mobs. And when we did, it was a group effort to split them temporary (cc on incoming) and those mobs were still active. Maybe I just had better groups, or did different content, I dunno, but it was very refreshing having the days of 'wait here while the puller goes and plays the game' long gone.

Of course, I also rarely played EQ 'properly' as we'd go into Howling Stones with a necro as our healer, or I remember one group in Old Seb that was 3 rogues and 2 bard and boy did we piss off just about every 'needed' class when we said we were doing just find and a proper tank/healer/cc would only slow us down.

But really, why does pulling have to be part of the design? So people can sit around and talk while someone else plays the game? TV?

edit: ah, wait, so you were a monk in EQ, tad? Or just wanting to be a puller in Vanguard? Starting to make sense. Like all the people vehemently opposed to any travel other than wiz/druid ports, who, what do you know, happened to play those classes. I'm all for class roles and shit, but let's make sure we're thinking outside of our own dumb heads and not just wanting something in a game because it will personally benefit our own playstyle.
 
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popsicledeath_sl said:
Yes, things like that help, but if you design the game such that it doesn't become a situation of the one right way to play, then you don't have to add in methods of countering that one right way to play.

This was the problem with EQ game design. You had aspects like single pulling with FD become the one right way to play the game. Eventually, you get other classes that are given or find ways to also accomplish that one right way to play the game. Then, you suddenly have to develop the game around that one right way to play the game.

Just make the game varied from the beginning and it's not an issue. In Vanguard, you could FD split mobs. It wasn't always necessary because there were plenty of other options as well. There weren't huge discussions and game-changes based around FD splitting, because it was just one tool, not the holy fucking grail that it became in EQ.

Extend that to solo-pulling in general not usually being necessary. Again, you didn't have huge, widespread changes to the game or design philosophy to address the issue, because it wasn't an issue. Sometimes you'd try to solo pull something, usually if solo, usually most classes having some convoluted mechanism to accomplish it. But in a group, you certainly didn't sit around waiting for a good puller. Get this, you simply, used your entire group to engage the enemy with a plan suited to the group makeup.
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I agree.. It should not be the only way.. I just want it to be one of the ways. The odd thing is I rarely ran with a monk or bard. My setup was mostly Tank, healer and Chanter plus me and whatever else we could find.. typically some kind of healer and a dps. I just think a good group game needs to be designed around challenging content with lots of utility involved so there is a real co-op between the players. Like I said.. nothing should work all of the time in regards to CC.. it should be a trial and error thing.. especially your first pass on content.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Convo_sl said:
I agree.. It should not be the only way.. I just want it to be one of the ways. The odd thing is I rarely ran with a monk or bard. My setup was mostly Tank, healer and Chanter plus me and whatever else we could find.. typically some kind of healer and a dps. I just think a good group game needs to be designed around challenging content with lots of utility involved so there is a real co-op between the players.
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It was just one of the ways in EQ. Until people found it was safer, and safer was easier. Then it was the only way. In my opinion the only way to make it not become the only way, is by making it pretty much unnecessary except for maybe the rare occasion. That won't make very many people happy who were EQ monks and want to relive those days.

In fact, a lot of the arguments we see on game design are basically not saying 'I want to be needed' but 'I miss being the only one or one of the only ones that was needed.' I think that's bad game design. I loved when an entire raid was reliant on my ability to port, solo into the plane of hate, survive, and drag corpses to the wall where the cleric was camped out. It was awesome for me! That doesn't mean it's good game design and something I think a game should go back to.
 
Khane

Khane

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popsicledeath_sl said:
It was just one of the ways in EQ. Until people found it was safer, and safer was easier. Then it was the only way. In my opinion the only way to make it not become the only way, is by making it pretty much unnecessary except for maybe the rare occasion.
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This line of thinking is what has WoWified this genre. There is ALWAYS going to be a safest way to do something, homogenizing the experience so people don't piss and moan takes all of the life out of a game.
 
M

Merlin_sl

shitlord
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popsicledeath_sl said:
Good: needing a healer, and lucky-fucking-duckythere are three different classes that can heal and they're actually funso nobody is ever 'forced' into being the one class that can heal but is boring by their guild or friends because you can't do a thing without that one class.
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You mean like Cleric, Druid, Shammy?


popsicledeath_sl said:
Bad: needing a warrior because they're the best tanks

Good: needing a tank, but, what do you know, there are several classes to choose from that all tank differently, but effectively, giving players more choices, less looking-for-one-class situations, and maybe they're even fun to play....
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Tanks? You mean like Warrior, SK, and Monk?

Bad: Making multiple classes all able to fill any role needed. Its a clusterfuck. It doesn't work and just leads to everyone soloing their way to max level. Dependence on classes is key to making this work. Its ok if you have to spend a few extra minutes sending tells to find a tank or healer.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Khane_sl said:
This line of thinking is what has WoWified this genre. There is ALWAYS going to be a safest way to do something, homogenizing the experience so people don't piss and moan takes all of the life out of a game.
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So make the safest a way that includes the full group and still has inherent dangers?

Because sitting around not starting a group until you had a solo-puller, and then sitting around waiting for that solo-puller to pull a solo that your group could devour with no real challenge wasn't homogenized?

In short, what the fuck are you talking about?
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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popsicledeath_sl said:
Solo, outdoors, exploiting leashing was pretty common, and why I'm not a fan of it. And leashing was the magic that often made FD work at all.

But in dungeons, regarding group content, leashing was of little impact. Unless you were with a really terrible group that had a Monk who'd been a monk in EQ and was thus the center of attention and loved by all for his ability to trivialize content, most groups I ever experienced didn't use FD to pull. Most groups didn't really pull at all in the sense of splitting mobs. And when we did, it was a group effort to split them temporary (cc on incoming) and those mobs were still active. Maybe I just had better groups, or did different content, I dunno, but it was very refreshing having the days of 'wait here while the puller goes and plays the game' long gone.

Of course, I also rarely played EQ 'properly' as we'd go into Howling Stones with a necro as our healer, or I remember one group in Old Seb that was 3 rogues and 2 bard and boy did we piss off just about every 'needed' class when we said we were doing just find and a proper tank/healer/cc would only slow us down.

But really, why does pulling have to be part of the design? So people can sit around and talk while someone else plays the game? TV?

edit: ah, wait, so you were a monk in EQ, tad? Or just wanting to be a puller in Vanguard? Starting to make sense. Like all the people vehemently opposed to any travel other than wiz/druid ports, who, what do you know, happened to play those classes. I'm all for class roles and shit, but let's make sure we're thinking outside of our own dumb heads and not just wanting something in a game because it will personally benefit our own playstyle.
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Don't go Jeff Butler on us (flipping out about needing clerics at SOELive). If you take out pulling you have to replace it with something else.. Spazzy AI, lots of cc, whatever. There is nothing wrong with one or two classes doing X best (tank, heal, cc, pull, etc) and other classes only able to panda thumb tanking, pulling, etc. Every class wants their Star Trek reboot moment to show everyone how well they canoperate transporters on moving humanspull or cc or wtf. Let that little red shirted monk have his moment in the sun or phosphorescent lit cave.

edit: yep.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Merlin_sl said:
You mean like Cleric, Druid, Shammy?
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Eh? Even AFTER druid and shammy got their good heals, it wasn't like they were being asked to be main healers a lot of places I went. They were just better backup healers.

Bad: Making multiple classes all able to fill any role needed. Its a clusterfuck. It doesn't work and just leads to everyone soloing their way to max level. Dependence on classes is key to making this work. Its ok if you have to spend a few extra minutes sending tells to find a tank or healer.
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At what point did I come even close to saying they should make multiple classes all able to fill any role needed?

Dependency on classes is great. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Plural. And don't try to give me any bullshit about how EQ wasn't the epitome of one class can do the one thing everyone wants done. It was the one game that made all others try to find way to avoid the syndrome where holy trinity means three classes are needed.

One time my rogue tanked a mob! EQ had choices!
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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popsicledeath_sl said:
So make the safest a way that includes the full group and still has inherent dangers?

Because sitting around not starting a group until you had a solo-puller, and then sitting around waiting for that solo-puller to pull a solo that your group could devour with no real challenge wasn't homogenized?

In short, what the fuck are you talking about?
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Well here's the thing and why I'm advocating for more utility than less. The more utility options you have the less chance of that happening.. Also.. a dungeon should play to classes strengths and weaknesses throughout the dungeon. an ideal group setup should never be common.. No wing should play to the same strengths or weaknesses. It really should be a mix and keep groups on their toes and constantly changing their strategies.
 
D

delirium_sl

shitlord
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Merlin_sl said:
Interesting. That might have been my first guild. Was the guild leader named, Maximillius, or something like that? We did an 8 hour corpse run and finally had to get a real guild in there to help. Can't remember who. Might have been Prophecy or Phantom Raiders.
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I honestly couldn't say, it wasn't too much longer after that when SOE made the Terris Thule server and allowed people from Bertox to transfer to it for free so I transferred with my bro and a few other friends lol.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Jimbolini_sl said:
Looking like a new tweet each day?

I assume Kickstarter last only 30 days? (Starting on Jan 15 would take you into tax return time)

Plus, 3 paydays in Jan. for some.
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The pantheonrotf site is now owned by their company. Though I still want to know if Salim is affiliated with this game, if so he needs to be whacked in the head if he starts
trying to "be funny" with lore, quests or NPC names.

@Sgrant: the kamelott shit was never funny or even mildly amusing.
 
arallu

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
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tad10_sl said:
The pantheonrotf site is now owned by their company. Though I still want to know if Salim is affiliated with this game, if so he needs to be whacked in the head if he starts
trying to "be funny" with lore, quests or NPC names.
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Looks like the @PantheonRotF twitter title changed too: from "modern, challenging, group-focused MMO Game" to "A classic take on epic MMO adventure"
 
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Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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tad10_sl said:
The pantheonrotf site is now owned by their company. Though I still want to know if Salim is affiliated with this game, if so he needs to be whacked in the head if he starts
trying to "be funny" with lore, quests or NPC names.

@Sgrant: the kamelott shit was never funny or even mildly amusing.
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I'm curious how big the team is. Less then 10? Btw.. who gave me an avatar? I'm sorry I didn't agree with your point.. maybe I thought it sucked!?
 
D

delirium_sl

shitlord
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Might be an odd request but could someone copy/paste these tweets? Things like twitter dont show up at work for some of us. Thanks.
 
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