this game already exists. it's called GW2 and it fucking sucks. playing capture the flag all day, every day is fucking a million times worse than doing dailies or quest grinds. doing a zerg fest pvp for a few shitty rewards is lame and if that's the way MMO's are heading, they are doomed.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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Rogosh
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Ok so I will take a knock at this, when it comes difficulty what I want to see is in no particular order:
1) Fear of dying, this happens when high end mobs are put in low end zones. Roaming npcs like a werewolf at night or a Griffon flying through during the day.
2) Encounters with npcs that arent just tank pulls and aoe dpsing down the mobs. Bring back crowd control and split pulls in some cases.
3)Trains,yes trains where you can die if you go around the corner and aggro a whole room of npcs. You could kill the whole zone if you are real bad. this brings me to my next point.
4)Reputation on your server will matter.SO no cross server anything and no transfers.
5) Death penalty, without this there is no risk. Either corpse recovery or some form of experience loss or both with a way to get partial exp back or all exp back.
6) Raid zones where you can die from trash and trains. Fear break etc.
7) Gear that not everyone can get, If this means keying for zones then so be it.
8) Boss encounters that are progressively hard, so hard in fact you dont need a hardmode, normal mode or raid finder.
9) Class specific epic quest chain. And yet another difficult thing to obtain.
10) Rare on use items that are either quested or dropped from rare npcs.
11) Open dungeons are a must, competition and fear of the unknown and all that.
Things I dont want to see:
a) Static spawns that drop the same loot, realism says why would an npc always have an item.
b) Class system where everyone canNOTdo everything. Give me a reason to be a Paladin tank or a druid healer. Why would it matter if everyone can be the same thing?
c) I dont want to see a gear reset everytime there is a content update, there should always be people doing old bosses or old dungeons.
1) Fear of dying, this happens when high end mobs are put in low end zones. Roaming npcs like a werewolf at night or a Griffon flying through during the day.
2) Encounters with npcs that arent just tank pulls and aoe dpsing down the mobs. Bring back crowd control and split pulls in some cases.
3)Trains,yes trains where you can die if you go around the corner and aggro a whole room of npcs. You could kill the whole zone if you are real bad. this brings me to my next point.
4)Reputation on your server will matter.SO no cross server anything and no transfers.
5) Death penalty, without this there is no risk. Either corpse recovery or some form of experience loss or both with a way to get partial exp back or all exp back.
6) Raid zones where you can die from trash and trains. Fear break etc.
7) Gear that not everyone can get, If this means keying for zones then so be it.
8) Boss encounters that are progressively hard, so hard in fact you dont need a hardmode, normal mode or raid finder.
9) Class specific epic quest chain. And yet another difficult thing to obtain.
10) Rare on use items that are either quested or dropped from rare npcs.
11) Open dungeons are a must, competition and fear of the unknown and all that.
Things I dont want to see:
a) Static spawns that drop the same loot, realism says why would an npc always have an item.
b) Class system where everyone canNOTdo everything. Give me a reason to be a Paladin tank or a druid healer. Why would it matter if everyone can be the same thing?
c) I dont want to see a gear reset everytime there is a content update, there should always be people doing old bosses or old dungeons.
Bruman
Golden Squire
- 1,154
- 0
A few of those are good examples of what I'd call "good difficulty", but some of those are too likely to implemented badly as well - and anything that is nothing more than "how much time can you camp something" is a bad one. One that requires a larger team, or more skilled players, are good. Ones that are simply gear checks are typically bad.
Things like "9) Class specific epic quest chain. And yet another difficult thing to obtain." are too vague, and again, not specific on how it's difficult. Some epics in EQ were "difficult" simply because of rare spawns (not true difficulty) or highly contested spawns (again, not true difficultly, even though many people enjoy competing/racing for spawns).
Things like "9) Class specific epic quest chain. And yet another difficult thing to obtain." are too vague, and again, not specific on how it's difficult. Some epics in EQ were "difficult" simply because of rare spawns (not true difficulty) or highly contested spawns (again, not true difficultly, even though many people enjoy competing/racing for spawns).
It this day and age, you can't have non-cross server capability unless your server capacity is huge. New players a year after launch want to play with other people, so pools of new players need to be created to do dungeons (instanced or otherwise) and other low level group content. That's just the nature of the beast when your game is based off of levels that segregates content between levelers and end game content. If you want to close off servers, then you'll have to design a game around recycling content that old and new players would use on a consistent basis.
Outside that, those are reasonable demands on a game that I'd like to see to some degree. The only ones I won't go for are "you can die to trash" fuck that. Trash in any raid is retarded and should be designed out of games. If you want to challenge a raid group outside a boss encounter, come up with different things like timed clears and platforming or something.
Outside that, those are reasonable demands on a game that I'd like to see to some degree. The only ones I won't go for are "you can die to trash" fuck that. Trash in any raid is retarded and should be designed out of games. If you want to challenge a raid group outside a boss encounter, come up with different things like timed clears and platforming or something.
Honestly I'm with Rogosh on that whole list.
I've got jack for time compared to what I did when starting EQ in its beta in 98 , but have zero problem with it taking a filthy casual like I am now more than a year to max level a character. And I'd like to see that epic armor in town on someone who got lucky or put in shitloads of time and I want it to be uncommon or rare to see , it makes it mean something then.
There are plenty of quick and easy mmo's , I'd much prefer time to be an equation put back in it along with that dirty word "contested content".
Everyone doesn't need to have equal access and be guaranteed everything. It's ok for the journey to take a long time , have set backs , and be just as , if not more important , than the "end game".
Maybe McQ can pull it off or someone else , but the market is saturated with easy , give everything to everyone , use death as a travel mechanism mmo's , so why not make a VG2/EQ3 ish game for those of us who'd rather have that style ?
I've got jack for time compared to what I did when starting EQ in its beta in 98 , but have zero problem with it taking a filthy casual like I am now more than a year to max level a character. And I'd like to see that epic armor in town on someone who got lucky or put in shitloads of time and I want it to be uncommon or rare to see , it makes it mean something then.
There are plenty of quick and easy mmo's , I'd much prefer time to be an equation put back in it along with that dirty word "contested content".
Everyone doesn't need to have equal access and be guaranteed everything. It's ok for the journey to take a long time , have set backs , and be just as , if not more important , than the "end game".
Maybe McQ can pull it off or someone else , but the market is saturated with easy , give everything to everyone , use death as a travel mechanism mmo's , so why not make a VG2/EQ3 ish game for those of us who'd rather have that style ?
There was a dude here who posted some M&A fan fiction about it in one of the other threads. That's the only place I've seen it written.
It's not true, but that's seldom stopped anyone from saying any given thing on the internet.
Bruman
Golden Squire
- 1,154
- 0
Because games cost money and need to make money, and MMOs are even more expensive. Good developers are expensive.
And people act like there's NOTHING out there right now that gives an experience like that. There is. You (generally speaking) just also, as I've said before, want it to be new and look awesome and be popular and highly populated.
When you have niche tastes, you have to sacrifice other things - be it playing with a smaller group, or a private server, or an indie title with really shitty graphics / horrible ui / kinda buggy / etc.
Tons. I think that's the answer you'd get from anyone who launched a game though.
It's a series of making decisions with wildly imperfect information, while trying to get as many iterations in as you possibly can to improve the information behind the decisions you're making, and trying to create the possibility for inspiration with each one.
Unlike much other software, "fun" doesn't have a formula, nor does it have a predictable time table to schedule against like "functionality" does. It's trial and error, and you try to win more than you lose. And you'll lose a lot.
When your "spec" is to create an enjoyable emotional response you're in a different world entirely from people whose job is to create software that serves a specific purpose that's essentially a known quantity. (Which is difficult and frequently unpredictable as it is!)
As a company's first game, there was added pressure, since the result would forever color the perception of said company.
And the little part about it having to be a particular amount of financially successful, such that they company could continue to, you know, exist.
So yep - There's a lot that would be done differently with more information, but in terms of the decisions made at the time, people who lived through it inside will know that they made sense.
Bruman
Golden Squire
- 1,154
- 0
I don't know what you mean by "good". That's too personal and ambiguous. And any game I suggest, I assure you it has big flaws, but it WILL have many aspects of things people say "no game has" (when they really mean "no big title made for the masses has").
Here's a list I posted in another thread (over here):
-Wurm Online
-Minecraft (kinda)
-Daggerfall
-Mortal Online
-And ya know...EverQuest is still going (test is even free) / Project 1999 / (you can even join/create a progression guild)
-As well as Ultima Online / various free shards
-Vanguard is still kicking along
-SWG emu
-FFXI
-ArcheAge ("sandpark"-ish or something)
There's also some interesting projects "in the works" (and I'm sure there's tons more):
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Neo's Land
-Pathfinder Online
-Camelot Unchained
-Citadel of Sorcery
But again, of those out - they're all either grindy, old, bad UI, or buggy (and NONE of them are popular). But they HAVE that experience that a lot of people claim to want. But they want the unspoken too, of popular with tons of polish, and I just don't think that's realistic (until MMOs become free to make, or some people create it as a hobby after 10 years of spare time and it finally launches).
Edit: Oh and it's not fantasy obviously, but EVE too.
Here's a list I posted in another thread (over here):
-Wurm Online
-Minecraft (kinda)
-Daggerfall
-Mortal Online
-And ya know...EverQuest is still going (test is even free) / Project 1999 / (you can even join/create a progression guild)
-As well as Ultima Online / various free shards
-Vanguard is still kicking along
-SWG emu
-FFXI
-ArcheAge ("sandpark"-ish or something)
There's also some interesting projects "in the works" (and I'm sure there's tons more):
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Neo's Land
-Pathfinder Online
-Camelot Unchained
-Citadel of Sorcery
But again, of those out - they're all either grindy, old, bad UI, or buggy (and NONE of them are popular). But they HAVE that experience that a lot of people claim to want. But they want the unspoken too, of popular with tons of polish, and I just don't think that's realistic (until MMOs become free to make, or some people create it as a hobby after 10 years of spare time and it finally launches).
Edit: Oh and it's not fantasy obviously, but EVE too.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,768
- 617
Thanks for the reply. Rift had it's fun but came up short in other areas for me. I still got 3 months out of it so it was worth the box for sure.Tons. I think that's the answer you'd get from anyone who launched a game though.
It's a series of making decisions with wildly imperfect information, while trying to get as many iterations in as you possibly can to improve the information behind the decisions you're making, and trying to create the possibility for inspiration with each one.
Unlike much other software, "fun" doesn't have a formula, nor does it have a predictable time table to schedule against like "functionality" does. It's trial and error, and you try to win more than you lose. And you'll lose a lot.
When your "spec" is to create an enjoyable emotional response you're in a different world entirely from people whose job is to create software that serves a specific purpose that's essentially a known quantity. (Which is difficult and frequently unpredictable as it is!)
As a company's first game, there was added pressure, since the result would forever color the perception of said company.
And the little part about it having to be a particular amount of financially successful, such that they company could continue to, you know, exist.
So yep - There's a lot that would be done differently with more information, but in terms of the decisions made at the time, people who lived through it inside will know that they made sense.
I don't know if you can speak on the direction of Trion but have you considered getting away from the AAA mmo and going niche? It seems like a part of the market that isn't being explored enough by people in the position to deliver a solid, fun, polished game? I know everyone wants to be a big dog but isn't there money to be made in a solid PvE game or PvP game. Just seems like big budget isn't worth it anymore.
Rift had awesome classes and difficult dungeons. Then about 3 weeks in they just caved and made all the dungeons faceroll and nerfed any enjoyment out of builds
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,533
- 595
Good list. MMO's have got so fucking watered down you can play for hours and when you log off, you don't really give a shit.