Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Nester · Jan 17, 2014

Edit as I cant read

Khayos_sl · Jan 17, 2014

It is lifetime though for a dollar a year. It has been confirmed.

Utnayan · Jan 17, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
I agree that Downtime could be managed. I think EQ did it well, and we will do it much like EQ, but I agree we need to explain that better.

Then, explain it better here with a post?

tad10 · Jan 17, 2014

Dear Utnayan,

You're behavior in this thread has me convinced that you are a giant fraud. I had thought you bitched about games because, deep down, you actually cared about games not sucking. But I see now that you just want to bitch about games. We are all aware of the problems with Kickstarter, Vanguard Development and MMO development generally. Still, Brad's little project is the current "last best hope" for a non sucky game in the next five to ten years. As such, if you weren't such a big whiny pussy fraud, you would have pledged your $45 for Alpha or your $250 for Pre-Alpha Testing so you could get in early and spend the next three years doing your best screaming, yelling, and bitching on the Visionary Boards to "help" Brad & Co. make the best game they can given their financial limitations.

Instead, you are doing your best to prevent that game from getting funded so that you can continue to whine on message boards about how sucky the current and upcoming crop of MMOs are.

Up yours.

Regards,

Tad10

delirium_sl · Jan 17, 2014

Heres My understanding of the tiers starting with $20 which is limited to 5k pledges, you get beta access and forums but no game. For $35, you basically get a discount on the game but no beta access or forums access (but I agree it should include forums atleast) and its limited also to 5k pledges. I assume this means that when they game releases, the sale price will be more than $35. So you are getting it at a discount rate.

$45 gets you Alpha/beta, a copy of the game and forums. But it is limited to 2.5k. The $55 teir gets you Beta, the game and forums, but it is UNLIMITED. THats they key, its unlimited. so once all the cheaper deals run out, you are stuck with $55 to get the game and beta, etc.

I dont get the new $250 tier honestly so the idea behind that needs some clarification. Does it include the LSUB or not?

Furious · Jan 17, 2014

tad10_sl said:
Please stop with the engine discussion in this thread. If you don't understand how retarded it is, then you yourself are retarded. Are you retarded a_skeleton_03? Are you?

a_skeleton_03 is Genius backwards. He's no dummy!~~ or is it Dumby?

a_skeleton_03 · Jan 17, 2014

tad10_sl said:
Please stop with the engine discussion in this thread. If you don't understand how retarded it is, then you yourself are retarded. Are you retarded a_skeleton_03? Are you?

You most definitely are.

Engines matter more than half the stuff talked about. Probably more than half. You guys are quibbling over "complicated" tiers which are easy enough to read and figure out.

You, tad10, you are actually trying to tell a developer how to go to other forums and post. Someone you are expecting to make you the next great MMO you think is too dumb to post on other forums and only tad10 will be the one to remind him. Until you came along he though this was the only forum on the internet. THAT is retarded. What engine the game uses is not.

Anomander Rake · Jan 17, 2014

Chakravartin_sl said:
Any plans to re-shoot the KS video? It's just turning so many people off. Unprofessional is the latest adjective...

Khayos_sl said:
Brad what is the deal with the Paragon Tier? The way I understand it, I get all previous tiers, but no higher tier includes the paragon. So it is limited to 500 total. What I am unclear about is if it also includes the 250 for lifetime sub?

Furious_sl said:
+1. Take the 30 mins and go through the tiers and clean them up. Make it easier to understand for us retards.

This is what I am talking about. Since you won't pull the plug on this Kickstarter and try again with better planning (understandably since you run the risk of losing out on the people who have already pledged, by way of frustration), you would be better served to have someone,anyonehandling this on a constant basis. And not just when us forum nerds point it out. And the video....the first thing I thought was "who among you thought this was polished?" I mean seriously I can see the monitor / cue cards reflecting off anyone wearing glasses, and the "enthusiastic" delivery felt totally phoned in. If your team seems like they are faking their excitement, why should we care? Hire someone, or have someone pro-bono re-do this for you guys. Every bit of polish applied now will increase your total take. It feels like the money is starting to run out of steam. and I think it's because of these things.

Draegan_sl · Jan 17, 2014

delirium_sl said:
Heres My understanding of the tiers starting with $20 which is limited to 5k pledges, you get beta access and forums but no game. For $35, you basically get a discount on the game but no beta access or forums access (but I agree it should include forums atleast) and its limited also to 5k pledges. I assume this means that when they game releases, the sale price will be more than $35. So you are getting it at a discount rate.

$45 gets you Alpha/beta, a copy of the game and forums. But it is limited to 2.5k. The $55 teir gets you Beta, the game and forums, but it is UNLIMITED. THats they key, its unlimited. so once all the cheaper deals run out, you are stuck with $55 to get the game and beta, etc.

I dont get the new $250 tier honestly so the idea behind that needs some clarification. Does it include the LSUB or not?

Their whole tier setup is awful and at this point they are just randomly adding thing to it confusing things. They should probably stop doing anything to it and see if they can clean it up, though I don't know if they can with people already pledging.

It's a mess.

jilena_sl · Jan 17, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
I don't think anyone asked for EQ's down time. I think what people are pointing towards is the need for downtime in order to bring about a larger strategic meta-game play. For example, do you remember all the problems Blizzard had with balancing mana regen? No matter what they did, the mechanic was shit. I think a large portion of that is due to the fact that "Mana's" key strength was the "tactical" portion of the game (IE in combat) and it's weakness was the strategic portion of the game (IE down time.) When downtime got eliminated, you had a world where mana was either unlimited within encounters and therefor ridiculously overpowered, or limited in encounters and therefor complete dog shit compared to discreet energy systems. Or unlimited and so the casters spells were made into dog shit that couldn't be spammed enough to balance it. (And it often shifted between those levels of crap).

In a gamewithdowntime though, it adds another level to play. Combat isn't all just about difficulty paradigms, it also becomes aboutefficiencyas well. For example: Having a Wizard which can one shot mobs gives you anenormoustactical advantage on on a fight, but if he needs to med for 2 minutes afterwords, it slows down your total progression in terms of getting shots on named mobs. Conversely, a rogue might force you take 30 seconds to kill the actual mob, but he's ready to move on the moment combat is done. (I know you can probably see tons of problems with balance here--I'm obviously not being specific, just illustrating really broad points.) That variable in strategic or "long term" thinking--create entire variables for how groups operate. Extra Credits has a great episode on this in terms of stealth games. Stealth games that force you to sit there and yank on your dick in a forced down time, are often poorly designed. But stealth games that build the downtime into your strategic choices? Makes a more compelling, albeit slower game.

And I think that's what people want. Downtime that is a natural and organic obstacle to game play--and thereby something the group works together, or recruits members, in order to defeat. By having that draw back, you allow for players to hold a lot more "cards" in alleviating it--there by adding another layer of play to your game. I mean, how much do you knee cap support by making the strategic part of the game nothing? Downtime should be a planned weakness that you give certain players the ability to reduce, in order to give them compelling tools *outside* of combat.

Which brings us back to WoW--a lot of the problems with mana system, again, was because mana was designed to emulate the table top version of memorizing spells. And the power that spells offered was offset by enormous down time and rigid practical application. This created a great dynamic where different character types needed to be used for different areas of the game. (You going to waste your big spell on those goblins? Nope, most likely you didn't even memorize a combat spell, because the fighters can dispatch the bullshit and you need to go open the portal back to dildo kingdom.) By removing one of those areas of play, IE the strategic or "bigger picture", you kind of lost something in translation.

Now, again, that isn't saying everyone wants big downtime back. But what I want is for someone to look at that strategic/longer term portion of the game, and see how they can iterate on it to make it more compelling. Make it feel like downtime is an organic reward/penalty system. I want these negatives mainly because I want tons of permutations on how they can be overcome. I don't want them there "just to have them". As someone else said, if downtime was just some immutable, unchanging control that wasn't really integrated into the game? Then it's bad. If it is, however, a natural process that can be overcome, or arises from mistakes, or (best yet) a trade off people make for short term advantages? Then that, I feel, is a good design (Within certain limits.)

I mean, yes, combat should be hectic but most "combat" is laced with downtime in the real world for a reason (It's exhausting, mentally too.)...That "downtime" is often filled with periods of tactical formulation (IE planning) and recovery--and I think there should be elements in the game that simulate that in a fun, compelling way (Make planning and recovery aspects of the larger game, reward efficiency and make it compelling for players to plan how to reduce downtime.) Anyway, just my .02$. I don't want downtime mainly for social reasons. I want some downtime so it can be exploited as it's own meta game and yeah, the benefit is that it makes people talk. And that's good, but up to a certain point, of course. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to stare at a wall for 10 minutes and hope that it will be good "social" time.

This^

I thought the implementation (staring at a book, later sitting) in EQ was stupid. However having the idea of limited resources and how you choose to manage them was important. Should you burn that mana now to end the fight quicker, or hold on to it just in case some shit jumps off you weren't expecting. The key was that you had a finite pool of resources that you could not immediately regenerate. You had the ability to make it regenerate faster but that also required a choice (sitting vs fighting). The resource was so important some classes brought huge utility to the group just by being able to increase its rate of regeneration.

The point being that while maybe not on par with a game of chess, every encounter required strategy and poor strategic choices resulted in more downtime, even death, or in some cases a complete failure and wipe. Some people are scoffing at the thought of ice comet but really spells like that and complete heal were huge strategic choices. The large mana investment and cast time meant planning ahead before using them.

Burn 400 mana on complete heal and you may not have enough to cast gheal or remedy on that wizard that just dropped ice comet. Cast it too soon you are wasting mana. Cast it too late, your tank dies.

Burn 400 mana on ice comet and you might not have enough mana to evac after the next horrible pull or enough to snare that fleeing mob. Cast it too soon, the mob is eating your face. Cast it too late, the rogue got some nice BS in and you just wasted half the damage.

In WoW I miss a reactionary and my DPS drops 1% for that fight, who cares.

Anomander Rake · Jan 17, 2014

While I don't agree with Utnayan's name calling, I do think he belongs in this thread. He is the perfect counterbalance to all of the Pollyanna praise this Kickstarter is getting. Hell I was super pumped at first, and ready to pledge my unborn child. But the more and more I see, and the more and more reality sinks in (via Utnayan and the handling of this Kickstarter by Brad and Co.), the more cautious I become.

tad10 · Jan 17, 2014

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Engines matter more than half the stuff talked about.

Which wasn't my point was it? My point was that a bunch of people who have neither CS degrees nor development experience were discussing Unity and Heroengine in this thread as if they were Coke and Pepsi.

Also try to keep up with the thread before going postal, twenty pages, Brad was asking people for advice on forums.

Vandraad_sl · Jan 17, 2014

I truly fail to see why a $600 supporter would not include the same perks found in that new $250 tier plus additional perks. It makes no sense. The whole point, for me anyway, of putting up a higher donation amount is exactly to get the unique perk of that level plus much of what falls below that level. That new $250 tier just blows the $500, $600 and $1000 tiers away.

tad10 · Jan 17, 2014

Anomander Rake_sl said:
He is the perfect counterbalance to all of the Pollyanna praise this Kickstarter is getting.

But that's the trick, nobody is happy with the kickstarter. Go back to Monday and Tuesday's posts on this thread. Most of us, myself included, wanted Brad to take it down and:

-Redo the video showing only Concept Art. No gameplay.
-Get rid of the "SLASH" screenshot.
-Fix the tiers (even worse now as Draegen and Furious and Vandraad and Etc. have pointed out - especially with the new $250 Tester tier that show roll up)
-Clear description of "How Pantheon is Different from WoW and EQ1"
-Clear description of features.
-Stretch goals that made sense.

That's why Ut's an ass. He jumped in yesterday spouting stuff that we have all already hashed out and badgered Brad about - just in a slightly more constructive way - as if he was the only one to think of it.

a_skeleton_03 · Jan 17, 2014

tad10_sl said:
Which wasn't my point was it? My point was that a bunch of people who have neither CS degrees nor development experience were discussing Unity and Heroengine in this thread as if they were Coke and Pepsi.

Also try to keep up with the thread before going postal, twenty pages, Brad was asking people for advice on forums.

Postal? LOL

You don't think half of us don't have CS degrees or developmental experience just because you don't? Unlike you the rest of has have played more than just EQ and Vanguard and have also seen a lot of engines.

Unity is what a lot of IOS games are running and it is FREE to download and program with. Hero is only $100 so yeah a lot of people here have some playtime with it.

Cathex_sl · Jan 17, 2014

Anomander Rake_sl said:
Starting to wonder about the success of this kickstarter + what the game is going to be likeifit ever launches. As a small business owner, I just don't understand how this KS launch could be so disorganized, and so reliant on anonymous people on internet message boards to get its shit together. I couldn't even fathom doing something this monumental with what seems like such little planning. Keeping my pledge in for now as I have spent far more on far worse, but definitely losing faith that this is every going to be anything substantial. I mean seriously, the pledge tiers, and their constant reorganizing is a fucking disaster. Get your shit together guys.

Hate to say, but I could not have said this better. I cannot help but infer what Pantheon will be like given this less than stellar Kickstarter. My $250 is still in for the long haul, but soon I hope the tide turns.

Draegan_sl · Jan 17, 2014

jilena_sl said:
This^

I thought the implementation (staring at a book, later sitting) in EQ was stupid. However having the idea of limited resources and how you choose to manage them was important. Should you burn that mana now to end the fight quicker, or hold on to it just in case some shit jumps off you weren't expecting. The key was that you had a finite pool of resources that you could not immediately regenerate. You had the ability to make it regenerate faster but that also required a choice (sitting vs fighting). The resource was so important some classes brought huge utility to the group just by being able to increase its rate of regeneration.

The point being that while maybe not on par with a game of chess, every encounter required strategy and poor strategic choices resulted in more downtime, even death, or in some cases a complete failure and wipe. Some people are scoffing at the thought of ice comet but really spells like that and complete heal were huge strategic choices. The large mana investment and cast time meant planning ahead before using them.

Burn 400 mana on complete heal and you may not have enough to cast gheal or remedy on that wizard that just dropped ice comet. Cast it too soon you are wasting mana. Cast it too late, your tank dies.

Burn 400 mana on ice comet and you might not have enough mana to evac after the next horrible pull or enough to snare that fleeing mob. Cast it too soon, the mob is eating your face. Cast it too late, the rogue got some nice BS in and you just wasted half the damage.

In WoW I miss a reactionary and my DPS drops 1% for that fight, who cares.

Go look at how DDO does (or at least did) things. That was pretty fun.

jilena_sl · Jan 17, 2014

Kedwyn_sl said:
As for leveling, I much prefer making the world interesting and letting us go out there and explore. I felt GW2 had a good idea with events although their system was retarded in many ways it was a good departure from straight up grinding ! and ?. Their issue was there were only a handful of events worth doing and everyone just did those. 90% of that world was empty and not worth bothering with which was such a waste.

Anyway, I'd rather that with deep dungeons and interesting mobs than the traditional ! ?. In fact I'd like to see the !? go away except for epic lines.

I'd also like to see the return of shit tons of named mobs. All with good loot tables. Games these days are so stale, give us some decent to OP loot tables, stick a ton of these named mobs (dungeons, over world, everywhere) with random spawn points and times in obvious and not so obvious places and let people have fun. I should be running and see a named with my group and we should be peeling off at max speed to grab it not just running by because it happens to be some shitty quest mob. Worried about pharmers? If you make spawn points obvious then yeah people will macro them but if you put the least amount of thought into it you can make these mobs very difficult to macro.

I liked the events in GW2 and the public quests in Warhammer Online. Maybe make them a bit less obvious with no big markers on the map or specialized indicators of progress. Just say you show up at some guy's farm and see he's pinned in his house with Orcs beating on the door and you and your buddies kill them off and he offers you a reward if you talk to him after the fact. He could yell something out at you like THANKS COME HERE I HAVE SOMETHING FOR YOUR BRAVERY HOT SEXY WARRIOR BABE BEING PLAYED BY A MAN.

I think these were good innovations and if tweaked to be less repetitive and obvious (i.e. events/group quests endlessly resetting on a timer) they could make for a lot of fun.

Yes please more on the named mobs with STUFF. Even quest mobs need to be EQ style and always be able to drop the item not OH SHIT I'VE BEEN KILLING THESE FOR 17 HOURS AND I JUST REALIZED I DIDN'T HAVE THE QUEST SO I DIDN'T GET THE DROPS. I don't care about farmers, just make the combat hard to script. Actual players can farm all day if they want I don't care.

Furious · Jan 17, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
btw, we're working on a reward system for people who've gone out of their way to help spread the word, on this site and else where. I don't have any details yet, but I thought I should bring up our intent to do this ASAP. You guys have been a HUGE part of this and we are deeply indebted to you.

Ya there are some people on this board that are working around the clock to get this out and about.

Superfans here.

tad10 · Jan 17, 2014

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Postal? LOL

Dude I worked with Hero Engine in 2011-12, I even had a shitty fohguild post about it. And back before I made the idiot decision to go to law school I was a UNIX Systems Admin for the telecom development side of GTE/Verizon. But who gives a fuck? Right? Because the thing is, I could be a D- Sociology student at Butthurt U and I would still be smart enough to know that sitting here and arguing with Brad's lead developer about engine choices is bullshit.

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