Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I'm still in at 250. Everything points to not funding, so I might up that to feel good about myself with no actual risk.

You guys are bitching at symptoms, everything wrong with the kickstarter is symptomatic of poor management. Brad is a likeable guy and I dig the one actual new combat mechanic reveal (virtual group targets in an otdt system) but maybe the current debacle will convince him that next time he tries this he needs to first get a producer who can keep shit organized and on time. Yeah I mentioned this last week but it bears repeating.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Is that question for lowering it or removing it entirely? Because I'd lower it just to provide that feedback there where I assume it'll reach them (although that's starting to look like a big assumption).

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It only gives you the pop up feedback question for pulling a pledge entirely , not lowering (I lowered first then pulled it and got it then).

Not writing it off 100% and obviously still want the game , but right now my bets on it not getting funded. Currently it looks like it's best chance is to barely hit 800k thus zero stretch goals.

Just disappointed as got my hopes up, my real fear now is that it will be seen to be evidence of a game like this not being viable.

It should instead be seen as a 101 in how to not do a Kickstarter and say nothing about this type of game.

I feel if they had launched with a better page , not went into hiding at launch of the KS, had at least a little actual game facts/spell lists/specifics of something , and even one short video of very ,very rough gameplay they'd have had no issue getting 1-2 million easy, maybe more.

Instead they put so little planning and forethought into it their first picture had the "SLASH" and a week later we are at Batman.

Also Mulligan's quote of a "David Pellillo" needs to be read. Go read the KS page and this guy's posts will make you crack up and rage at the same time. It's an example of someone no where in the real world, that has no clue that big number to the right of the thread isn't looking good at all.He's at the GTFO stage along with others who are acting like it's a funded game in beta stage.

zzeris_sl said:

I also find this thread hilarious. Years of the same lol, 'diehards' bitching about getting another EQ and they'd definitely support such a vision. ........................ It's hilarious to hear people pulling the support because of a poor KS so far. That screams of apathy to me. The true sentiment of an EQ diehard it seems.

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I think its more along the lines of watching the entire Sigil/Vanguard debacle and then seeing this KS. Deja Vu and all that.

zzeris_sl said:

I definitely understand that. The question is, " do you want it or not?" There is no other question and there is no one else that wants to make this game. Either you support it or you really didn't want this kind of game. There's really no middle ground on that sentiment. I personally would like to see something like this again during some EQNL downtime. I'm not 'diehard' though, lol. I wonder how many really are?

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I don't really see it that way. I see your point and it's not ridiculous , but I think it's perfectly viable to think that Brad may trainwreck this shit worse than Vanguard style going by the past week. There's zero excuse for the condition of the Kickstarter.

I think it's possible that it will be such a terrible KS people will see it as that and that another group/dev can try the same type of game , or even Brad , with an actual tech demo and preparation this time around.

Hell , who knows , maybe it fails horribly and Brad finally learns his lesson (someone slap me now ) ,and relaunches a few months from now with a dramatically and improved version as it should have been done.

I just don't see saying either you support this or you don't like this type of game. I love this type of game. I just happen to think it deserves zero money to this KS in it's current form.

(subject to change , I've got 30 days to jump back in also , so Brad prove me wrong and go into overdrive mode fixing this shit )

zzeris_sl said:

It's hilarious to hear people pulling the support because of a poor KS so far. That screams of apathy to me. The true sentiment of an EQ diehard it seems.

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It's certainly apathy, and not the history with this particular developer. Nope, definitely apathy. Sarcasm aside....

I was more shocked at the sheer amount of support Brad actually got. To me, that is pretty convincing that people are desperate for this kind of niche MMO. The fact that 200k was raised within a few days for someone who had boondoggled 30+ Million in funding just 7 years ago is astounding. If you think that "speaks of lack of demand"...I'm not even sure what to say...It probably just speaks more to the fact that people are very leery to trust someone who had such an epic screw up with their money. Don't you think?

I mean, damn man, put this into some context. There are other factors are play for this particular developer than just the status of this KS campaign. People have histories, you know. And just because Brad apologized, doesn't mean most people here forget what happened in the VG thread vs the reality of VG.

zzeris_sl said:

I definitely understand that. The question is, " do you want it or not?" There is no other question and there is no one else that wants to make this game. Either you support it or you really didn't want this kind of game. There's really no middle ground on that sentiment. I personally would like to see something like this again during some EQNL downtime. I'm not 'diehard' though, lol. I wonder how many really are?

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That's kinda silly though. I want a full on open world PvP game but if someone showed me shadowbane gameplay I wouldn't throw down 1k on it lol. Doesn't mean I don't like that game type. Just means I don't like that implementation. Same thing here. I love EQ. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours into P99. I want another EQ game. I just don't want to throw money at guys who can't be assed to even TRY to look like they are serious about delivering it : /

mkopec_sl said:

They should of launched a smaller kickstarter to kickstart their real kickstarter, seriously. Make it be 100K to design an alpha build of a couple of zones with combat and a few NPCs. Thats all it would of took.

Then launch a kickstarter with the alpha build now to show that they are serious abut making a game and having some of the core features to show us, like some of the combat, for instance.

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Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding......

Best idea I've seen all day.

mkopec_sl said:

They should of launched a smaller kickstarter to kickstart their real kickstarter, seriously. Make it be 100K to design an alpha build of a couple of zones with combat and a few NPCs. Thats all it would of took.

Then launch a kickstarter with the alpha build now to show that they are serious abut making a game and having some of the core features to show us, like some of the combat, for instance.

As it stands now, all we have is some sketched on napkins. Yeah the idea is great and all, but its still Brad were taking about. And like Lithose mentioned, there is some bad history to get from behind.

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I am sure that is on the backburner if this doesn't work. I think he could have had a blank page and raised 100k.

Amidst the numerous complaints (I personally don't care about a class name) one thing is ringing pretty true and it's something I brought up back with the Cleric - class reveals and slow trickles of lore are not going to garner excitement and interest enough to get backers. You need to stop treating this like a normal announcement where you can slowly hype things. This is different and you need to sell people on it upfront.

Some suggestions:

Talk more about what you plan to do without using generic buzzword-filled bullet points like "A constantly expanding and evolving world" and "A huge world to explore, trade and adventure in." You can temper your promises by being very transparent and open about the fact that this is what you're planning and seeking to do, but you need to detail what your actual aim is and how you plan to do it or this is just noise.

• Go into detail about what you mean when you say players can "acquire the spirits of fallen warriors" and "exploring the world will provide knowledge and power." You touched on acquiring new abilities by defeating foes or completing a quest, so give us real examples even if they never specifically make it into the game.
• Similarly, do what I said earlier about the Cleric and talk about how classes and specializations are actually going to play. Talk about what sorts of roles they will fill while peppering in hints at what group combat and encounters will be like. Talk about how players can establish themselves within the community or play a key role within a group or raid.
• Talk specifically about what moving through and playing in a dungeon will be like in Pantheon.
• Talk about items. What is the plan here? This is incredibly important.
• Talk upfront about the leveling and sub-leveling you've touched on but not really said enough to get anyone excited. Slower leveling but with lots of advancement and the feeling of progress within a level is a very interesting idea, but it means nothing if you don't actually make us think about how it's going to play out.
• Talk about risk vs. reward using specific examples and why this is important to you as developers and why you think it needs to return to MMOs. I know why, but I need to know that you know and have a good grasp on how to apply this to the design.

This is all stuff that should honestly be sections on the main kickstarter page and not just little updates with a blurb. The above is what your game is about and what can make it special, assuming you guys truly have a solid plan for this stuff. As time goes on, it's feeling to me like there's nothing more than a very rough, general idea that you want to make an EQ/VG successor but you aren't talking about anything that gives backers faith that you're the people to make it. Previous experience can be nice, but it certainly isn't everything. In fact, many of the devs I've met since entering the industry that worked on EQ understand less about what made that game great than the peers I played EQ with and myself. You have a platform to prove me wrong. This isn't the time to hold things close to the chest or be arrogant enough to think you need to keep your secret sauce hidden. You've got to sell this game and yourselves within the next few weeks, unless you don't really care whether the KS makes it or not.

zzeris_sl said:

Brad has gotten 1500 people to support this. That is not massive support. Jacobs finished with 15,000. Sure, it's still very early. I don't see 15,000 backing this. And I sure don't see anyone else making this type of game. Pretty simple position honestly.

Oh, and the context argument is hilarious! Jacobs shit on over a million people with Warhammer. He still got his funding though didn't he? Vanguard maybe got 400,000?

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I was wondering about the numbers thing also. Numbers as in number of backers. It just seemed awful low to me also.

Pure amount wise they are currently at a stage where they will need an average of 20k every day. I know there are spikes usually at the end of KS's , but I really wanted to see the project get funded well , not barely. To even begin to hit the stretch goals you get into 40-50k a day from now on , and that's just for the lowest stretch goals.

zzeris_sl said:

There is no other question and there is no one else that wants to make this game. Either you support it or you really didn't want this kind of game.

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False dilemma. There are a billion choices between those two. Like, really wanting the game to be made but not wanting to be a sucker? Also, how do you know no one else wants to make this game? Brad found 10 people who do. He found a few hundred people to back him already.

There are shades of gray here, Zzer. The fact is, development tools are becoming easier and cheaper, niche games are the future. This isn't the "last stand of group MMO's!"...it's just the best hope for a while, yes. But it's certainly not dire enough that no other factors can be considered. (Factors between either fund or never see this game type again!)

zzeris_sl said:

Oh, and the context argument is hilarious! Jacobs shit on over a million people with Warhammer. He still got his funding though didn't he? Vanguard maybe got 400,000?

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Jacobs ran his kickstarter as a social media campaign. Once again, context--not just one factor makes or breaks something. It can be a strong mix of previous screw ups, combined with current problems that resemble those. If Jacobs started his campaign by fucking the dog and releasing absolutely no information or making other mistakes that resembled his tenure at Warhammer do you think he'd be as successful? Nope. He was smart and quickly distanced himself from criticism through a pretty staggering campaign of engagement and information. (Engagement being the key word.)

You're just creating a bunch of overly simplistic analysis, Zzer. The fact is, rationality is usually much more complex. And the choices being made around Brad, have to do with a wide range of things. Can one of them be the smaller market size? Sure, I don't doubt it. But again, smaller market size FOR WHAT? Nothing about this game is known except "it's a group game for grouping, that groups people together!"--lol, hard to even judge why people would not want it, because there is no information yet.

zzeris_sl said:

I definitely understand that. The question is, " do you want it or not?" There is no other question and there is no one else that wants to make this game. Either you support it or you really didn't want this kind of game. There's really no middle ground on that sentiment. I personally would like to see something like this again during some EQNL downtime. I'm not 'diehard' though, lol. I wonder how many really are?

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Lithose_sl said:

It's certainly apathy, and not the history with this particular developer. Nope, definitely apathy. Sarcasm aside....

I was more shocked at the sheer amount of support Brad actually got.

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I never played VG (well beta to lvl10 or so, wasnt impressed and had tech issues). I'm judging this kickstarter like any other that features a game I might want to play, not on any names. I've spent a good amount of money on Path of Exile because it shows that they *want* to make the game they are making and that was clear from the start. I'm not even playing it often but I'm happy about spending that money because that team convinced me that they're All In for their project.

I'm not seeing that kind of drive here. They had a shitty start, sure but they could've fixed it. What do we have a week later? Certainly not the full effort of 10 people that are All In. And that is making me second-guess the whole project, not the name of the guys involved (only know Brad anyway since I didnt play EQ2 or VG much).

mkopec_sl said:

They should of launched a smaller kickstarter to kickstart their real kickstarter, seriously. Make it be 100K to design an alpha build of a couple of zones with combat and a few NPCs. Thats all it would of took.

Then launch a kickstarter with the alpha build now to show that they are serious abut making a game and having some of the core features to show us, like some of the combat, for instance.

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Or why dont they just strive for 200k... they are almost there. They could send a message and say hey this is going to get us through the next 4-5 months. @ 200k reached the could call the initial kickstarter a SUCCESS and build from there.


Stage 1. 200k (funded) Funding 02/01/2014 through 8/01/2014
A. Initial Art Work for starting races.
B. Initial Paycheck for the team. ( Keeps them motivated and able to pay bills)
C. Initial Classes built. spells/look/etc
Stage 2. 250k(total 450k) Funding 08/01/2014 through 12/31/14
A. Massive work done on content/lore/etc
B . All Starting areas completed...Quests/layout/conent
C. Alpha Starts 11/01/14 through 12/31/2014?? anywhere in between
Stage 3. 350k (total 800k) Funding 01/01/2015 through 06/01/2015
A. Alpha Continues (improvements are made)
B. More races/classes added
C. More content lore is created/completed
D. Start talking Closed Beta

This is obvious a generic outline. Feel free to add or subtract where you see fit. I think that this would be a much more efficient method to get the funding needed. The biggest thing I think to help keep moral up is that fact that each stage of the kickstarter would be a success.

"The message said to meet out in the company parking lot. "Bring your keys and anything you'd need for the night" should've been a tip-off. Minutes later, Sigil Games' employees learned that by tomorrow morning many of them wouldn't have jobs. "Not 'laid off.' Not 'let go.' But fired," according to one former employee.

"I want to offer my sincerest apologies to everybody," said a despondent Jeff Butler. The president and executive producer at Vanguard: Saga of Heroes developer Sigil Games gave a heartfelt and off-the-cuff statement to the gathered employees in the parking lot. "This isn't what I brought you all to this company for, and it isn't how I wanted things to end up."

That was the scene at Sigil's Carlsbad, CA headquarters on Monday afternoon. The mass-termination of all the company's employees follows an announcement that publisher Sony Online Entertainment acquired the Vanguard IP and all of Sigil's game assets. Yet, it wasn't anyone at Sony Online who delivered the awful news...but rather, Sigil's production director Andy Platter."


Why the fuck would I give this guy my money...not getting a dime.