Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Oh, and in case it helps, it's probably worth bringing up how a lot of people see the game based on the current kickstarter main page. I work at a game dev studio with a lot of hardcore gamers and a lot of dudes that played UO, EQ, AC, DAOC and so on, so I expected a tone more similar to this thread both positively and negatively. Instead, most of them just skimmed it and came away with the impression that it's just a low-budget normal MMO that happens to require grouping (which, without any other context is a negative to them) and they also thought the screenshots and example video were what the game would look like. They aren't interested enough to take the time to watch the Q&As, so your only chance of grabbing their attention is with the individual headers and what that content is immediately saying, which currently isn't much. Within minutes, the name is a running joke among people who should be the ones interested in backing, or at least interested in discussing why they won't. Instead, they simply don't care.

Lithose_sl said:

Jacobs ran his kickstarter as a social media campaign. Once again, context--not just one factor makes or breaks something. It can be a strong mix of previous screw ups, combined with current problems that resemble those. If Jacobs started his campaign by fucking the dog and releasing absolutely no information or making other mistakes that resembled his tenure at Warhammer do you think he'd be as successful? Nope. He was smart and quickly distanced himself from criticism through a pretty staggering campaign of engagement and information.

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I don't know if we are going to see that campaign.. Not this week anyway. They have a lot of pending articles, and I doubt they are going to want to drop the info before the media outlets post them. It puts them in a compromised situation because the course they are on isn't working.. Ultimately, they may have to stay the course this week until all the articles are out.. hopefully starting next week they will adopt more of a social media campaign where all the information is dropped directly to the Kickstarter. As of right now, the approach with the media really isn't working.

Mr Creed_sl said:

I'm not seeing that kind of drive here. They had a shitty start, sure but they could've fixed it. What do we have a week later? Certainly not the full effort of 10 people that are All In. And that is making me second-guess the whole project, not the name of the guys involved (only know Brad anyway since I didnt play EQ2 or VG much).

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Well, that's a big part of it. The fact is, what do we really know about the game? It doesn't even really have a solid concept. It's got some lore, and some vague philosophical direction and right now, two very generic classes, one of them being Batman.

Jacobs Kickstarter came out with a ton of information. The game felt like not only did it have a goal, but it had already planned how to get there. And they had specifics about their engine, their design systems. There was meat to it, and a lot for him to talk about without focusing on his past. Their social media people could steer the conversation, they could keep it focused on the game itself--the design goals. You want to talk about Warhmmer? Fine motherfucker, lets talk about Warhammer sucked when 10 people were on the screen--thenI'll show my awesome engine that can handle500 people. No one could focus on the past because they used hype about the game, details about it, to put blinders on people looking forward.

What can we talk about there? Fucking Batman, that's what.

This is why Kickstarters that are successful release with tons of info. The main selling point of the game is what the CROWD talks about. 90% of this thread has been us discussing things we liked about EQ, because we literally don't know what this game is about. This is why that small cracks in the KS have such a huge impact. You have to handle a KS campaign like a Roman arena. Don't let the crowd get pissy, or they will destroy your project. Keep them focused, direct conversations and engage them. The topic of this thread should be features of Vanguard, every update shouldn't be reveals but instead more details about previous information that refocuses discussion. Every day should be more and more involvement.

Instead, we're here--2 days later, no PCgamer, and "THe Dark Knight". Yeah....

Agripa_sl said:

"The message said to meet out in the company parking lot. "Bring your keys and anything you'd need for the night" should've been a tip-off. Minutes later, Sigil Games' employees learned that by tomorrow morning many of them wouldn't have jobs. "Not 'laid off.' Not 'let go.' But fired," according to one former employee.

"I want to offer my sincerest apologies to everybody," said a despondent Jeff Butler. The president and executive producer at Vanguard: Saga of Heroes developer Sigil Games gave a heartfelt and off-the-cuff statement to the gathered employees in the parking lot. "This isn't what I brought you all to this company for, and it isn't how I wanted things to end up."

That was the scene at Sigil's Carlsbad, CA headquarters on Monday afternoon. The mass-termination of all the company's employees follows an announcement that publisher Sony Online Entertainment acquired the Vanguard IP and all of Sigil's game assets. Yet, it wasn't anyone at Sony Online who delivered the awful news...but rather, Sigil's production director Andy Platter."


Why the fuck would I give this guy my money...not getting a dime.

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I brought this up a few days ago and got roundly bitched at. It's like the old FOH vanguard thread and all the postmortem blogs on Sigils downfall never existed.

Tuco_sl said:

Hey guys it's been a long day how's the kickstarter doing?

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think the 180 that most posters have gone is a combo of the dark knight debacle combined with the nonexistent pcgamer article.

God damn. Catching up on what I missed from Friday to today has been a fucking rollercoaster. Atleast this game gave me entertainment at work for a month.

mkopec_sl said:

They should of launched a smaller kickstarter to kickstart their real kickstarter, seriously. Make it be 100K to design an alpha build of a couple of zones with combat and a few NPCs. Thats all it would of took.

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On this note, I gave Project Gorgon's alpha a try this weekend. I thought it was fantastic. They had a failed kickstarter that included much more info than even what Pantheon is showing. I think the alpha succeeds in demonstrating that the developer can make a good game and is capable of designing fun mechanics. After playing it I'd be willing to back a new kickstarter for Gorgon with far more than I've contributed to Pantheon.

Bah , I should be irriatated at myself for not pulling my pledge the second day.

We had to beg, plead,scream and bitch for Brad and Co to get out of their hole after then put up the site.

That should have been enough of a sign this wasn't going to end well right there.

Spynx_sl said:

Or why dont they just strive for 200k... they are almost there. They could send a message and say hey this is going to get us through the next 4-5 months. @ 200k reached the could call the initial kickstarter a SUCCESS and build from there.


Stage 1. 200k (funded) Funding 02/01/2014 through 8/01/2014
A. Initial Art Work for starting races.
B. Initial Paycheck for the team. ( Keeps them motivated and able to pay bills)
C. Initial Classes built. spells/look/etc
Stage 2. 250k(total 450k) Funding 08/01/2014 through 12/31/14
A. Massive work done on content/lore/etc
B . All Starting areas completed...Quests/layout/conent
C. Alpha Starts 11/01/14 through 12/31/2014?? anywhere in between
Stage 3. 350k (total 800k) Funding 01/01/2015 through 06/01/2015
A. Alpha Continues (improvements are made)
B. More races/classes added
C. More content lore is created/completed
D. Start talking Closed Beta

This is obvious a generic outline. Feel free to add or subtract where you see fit. I think that this would be a much more efficient method to get the funding needed. The biggest thing I think to help keep moral up is that fact that each stage of the kickstarter would be a success.

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I'm not sure they can make changes like that within the running kickstarter - actually from snippets mentioned here throughout the week I'm sure they cant. And if they pull it down they no longer have those 200k to work with. At that point they might as well rethink their entire strategy ... or should I say start formulating one?

zzeris_sl said:

Brad has gotten 1500 people to support this. That is not massive support. Jacobs finished with 15,000. Sure, it's still very early. I don't see 15,000 backing this. And I sure don't see anyone else making this type of game. Pretty simple position honestly.

Oh, and the context argument is hilarious! Jacobs shit on over a million people with Warhammer. He still got his funding though didn't he? Vanguard maybe got 400,000?

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This what I have been saying since Camelot Unchained showed up on KS'd and now with Pantheon. How did Jacobs do it? As I said in an earlier post, how do people not remember his social antics at the end of his time at WAR? If I remember correctly, even if it is a bunch of DAOC backers and maybe he beat Brad to the "old school" punch, this guy just doesn't have the name or following bring in what he did...

Honestly, considering today hindsight, I would probably (as of today) have backed CU over Pantheon but i'm trying to be loyal to Brad and his vision.

Vandyn_sl said:

I brought this up a few days ago and got roundly bitched at. It's like the old FOH vanguard thread and all the postmortem blogs on Sigils downfall never existed.

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We wanted to give Brad another chance.......to abuse us.

And he did.

$600 sold out. I thought it was a decent deal if project funds.

Tuco_sl said:

Even with how this has gone I feel like Brad et all could work their asses off in the next week, create a substantial design document, publish it and earn back the favor of our demographic.

And if it fails I still think he could come back in a few months to a year with more demonstrable content and successfully fund a kickstarter.

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I'll stay in for this one - but I'd only back a future Brad project if he was purely and clearly only in the designer role.

$600 Tier just sold out.

*edit* Beaten to it.

Now my idea wasn't millions of fans by any means, I might have worded that in an unclear way if so apologies.

What I mean was an actual video , laid out gamplay specifics (at least some ), actual early artwork that wasn't placeholders etc would bring in 1-2 million dollars much easier, in other words a good Kickstarter site.

As it stands now the shitfest KS will be very lucky to hit 800k.