Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mur_sl said:

I think if they had presented more concept art, including racial art, some armor sets, a few "monster" types, and some environmental stuff, that they would be doing much better. People want to look at images, and ohh and ahh over them. The first thing the hype train known as Wildstar did, was release a few environmental shots; showed the basic direction of the art, and people were all over it. I know there is at least one artist on the team, but what's he been doing since September, sharpening his box of 64 crayons?

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Probably getting the concept art ready for the race reveals this week. Unless they just list OGRE in all caps with a blank page

Mur_sl said:

I think if they had presented more concept art, including racial art, some armor sets, a few "monster" types, and some environmental stuff, that they would be doing much better. People want to look at images, and ohh and ahh over them. The first thing the hype train known as Wildstar did, was release a few environmental shots; showed the basic direction of the art, and people were all over it. I know there is at least one artist on the team, but what's he been doing since September, sharpening his box of 64 crayons?

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Totally agree, and this has been one of my main complaints about the KS. They could have presented much more concept art, specifically focusing on race + class concepts, dungeon flavour & tentative layouts. We got some good examples of city architecture, but it was from deviantart... Even if that artist is working on the team, that fact still detracts from the feeling of 'legitimacy' in the KS campaign.

I think even with the dubiousness toward Brad, they could have been successful with this by taking the approach that they're pitching a concept, not a product. Concept art would be good, along with clear intentions for the game that didn't have to include an actual summary of classes and lore, just what they want to do. They fucked up their approach and message, though, because they got so excited about the game that people are STILL under the assumption that 800k gets them a fully realized MMORPG, instead of just the chance to start making one.

People will throw money at something they understand, even if they're dubious, quicker than they'll throw money at something they're pretty sure might be awesome, but are confused exactly how and what they're going to do to get there. Hell, a well organized and presented KS can fund just on that aspect alone. Looking around, there seem to be a ton of projects where people take the approach that it looks good, so why not chip in.

lysis_sl said:

The big issue with Brad is trust. This would be another successful nostalgic KS lovefest if Brad didn't already horribly fuck over hundreds of thousands of his fans while the others were watching. To overcome this objection, IMO, something tangible is required. He needed engineers and artists on the job day one.

To come to us with so little and no plan other than "get funding somehow" after everything is Ricky Gervais comedy. I feel like I'm watching a KS by a combination of David Brent and Andy Millman.

Oh, I know. He is going to get business guys and a plan when he's funded right? Cross that bridge when they get there?


This is what I expect. This is what most other devs are having to do to get indie games made. I see no sacrifice here at all.

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See... I understand where people are coming from with this argument, but I not convinced it's reasonable.

Say this kickstarter campaign wasn't for a game... It was for a restaurant. They have an idea for a traditional family eatery, so they communicate all the 'feelings' and broad products they plan to offer. It's in their plan to have a wood fired grill, and bake their own bread. Their specialty is going to be... I dunno... Burgers. They know the location, the equipment they want/have, the target market, have some general sketches of theme and interior design, and a pretty good idea of the menu.

It feels sometimes like people are asking for the recipes to the patties. They want to know how coarse the meat is going to be ground and how much salt will be in them. They also want to know why you haven't hired waiters and a dishwasher. I don't think these things need to be decided when you are still unsure if it's even going to be funded.

I dunno... Maybe I'm way off.

lysis_sl said:

The big issue with Brad is trust. This would be another successful nostalgic KS lovefest if Brad didn't already horribly fuck over hundreds of thousands of his fans while the others were watching.

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Vanguard was a disappointment, yes, but to say he"fucked over thousands of fans".........What did you lose? $40 for the game? I mean honestly, he lost his ass and his reputation went to shit, not to mention someone (Sony? Microsoft?) lost 30 million dollars, but we has fans didn't lose shit. We were disappointed yes, but we didn't get fucked over. The game was released before it was ready and turned off thousands of fans. But we didn't get fucked over.

You're not far off. They have an idea for a restaurant in a part of town that is devoid of that cuisine (something people may support). They pitched the restaurant opening, when in reality they need funding to start finding a spot to build. Come the day to break ground, there are going to be a lot of people there to show their support, but they'll be hungry and confused.

Quaid_sl said:

Totally agree, and this has been one of my main complaints about the KS. They could have presented much more concept art, specifically focusing on race + class concepts, dungeon flavour & tentative layouts. We got some good examples of city architecture, but it was from deviantart... Even if that artist is working on the team, that fact still detracts from the feeling of 'legitimacy' in the KS campaign.

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The concept art from the Archway and Armada cities are from J.P. Targete, a freelance concept artist who does a lot of work for games, comics, films and such. So I take it he was commisioned by Brad and co to make some nice concept art for cities in Pantheon. The guy has an incredable portfolio, do a google pictures search on targete.

Treesong_sl said:

The concept art from the Archway and Armada cities are from J.P. Targete, a freelance concept artist who does a lot of work for games, comics, films and such. So I take it he was commisioned by Brad and co to make some nice concept art for cities in Pantheon. The guy has an incredable portfolio, do a google pictures search on targete.

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Ah cool, thanks!

Quaid_sl said:

See... I understand where people are coming from with this argument, but I not convinced it's reasonable.

Say this kickstarter campaign wasn't for a game... It was for a restaurant. They have an idea for a traditional family eatery, so they communicate all the 'feelings' and broad products they plan to offer. It's in their plan to have a wood fired grill, and bake their own bread. Their specialty is going to be... I dunno... Burgers.

It feels sometimes like people are asking for the recipes to the patties. They want to know how coarse the meat is going to be ground and how much salt will be in them. They also want to know why you haven't hired waiters and a dishwasher. I don't think these things need to be decided when you are still unsure if it's even going to be funded.

I dunno... Maybe I'm way off.

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Again, the issue is trust. If Brad had disappeared after leaving SOE in 2001 and reappeared in 2014 with a KS scribbled on a napkin and nothing else, this thing would be funded.

Because he made some very bad mistakes, he has to show that he's not that guy anymore. Instead, he's come to us late, poorly prepared and with nothing to show for an alleged 4 months of work except concept art. His team is incomplete and with only a vague plan. I'm not trying to beat that dead horse. My point is that in addition to a better prepared KS, he needs substance.

Treesong_sl said:

The concept art from the Archway and Armada cities are from J.P. Targete, a freelance concept artist who does a lot of work for games, comics, films and such. So I take it he was commisioned by Brad and co to make some nice concept art for cities in Pantheon. The guy has an incredable portfolio, do a google pictures search on targete.

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Either that or the asked if they could license a couple of his pieces that were already finished.

As for starting cities I would like to see 3 preferably 4. Using EQ as an example, you could condense Kelethin, Felwithe, Kaladim, and Akanon type areas into one city with different wings/areas and shared newbie zones with higher level zones branching off of there. You could do the same with Freeport, Neriak and Rivervale. You could do the the same with Qeynos, Halas , and Erudin city. Ogok and Grobb could have their own areas or be thrown in with the others somewhere in some fashion.

It's not ideal and while we would all want a bunch of starting areas the budget and population issues don't make it a reality. If they were to do something like this I could see it being a nice compromise of 12 starting cities and the horrible 2. Combining areas could also make for some interesting interactions with different factions and quests etc.

popsicledeath_sl said:

You're not far off. They have an idea for a restaurant in a part of town that is devoid of that cuisine (something people may support). They pitched the restaurant opening, when in reality they need funding to start finding a spot to build. Come the day to break ground, there are going to be a lot of people there to show their support, but they'll be hungry and confused.

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Lol!

That was funny man, but we've pretty much figured out the KS sucks by now right? I mean I'm sure I've seen that hinted at least once or twice.

Can't we just stop raping that dead horse now? Every time there's an interesting discussion going on, someone has to pop back in with "Guise teh KS sux amirite?"

Fuck.

Quaid_sl said:

It won't work for this reason. They say they want most items to be tradeable, then they say they want cross-server play. They can't have both, and will have to decide which is more important; cross server friendships, or healthy and stable server economies.

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Ah, ok. I can see how it could be abused and exploited and how the instancing takes you out of the world. I had no idea HOW it would work.
I just know more than a few times I find out after the fact that a friend or even my brother is playing the same game but we've already put roots down on different servers. So cross-server play SOUNDED like the perfect solution.

JarekStorm_sl said:

Lol!

That was funny man, but we've pretty much figured out the KS sucks by now right? I mean I'm sure I've seen that hinted at least once or twice.

Can't we just stop raping that dead horse now? Every time there's an interesting discussion going on, someone has to pop back in with "Guise teh KS sux amirite?"

Fuck.

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I agree, but if people are still going to bring it up, I'm still going to let them know it's known, and imo is a continual issue.

I mean, instead of focusing on land appraisals and restaurant names, they're having gramma cook up some food and saying "see, this is what food looks like, and what it may or may not look like in our restaurant we haven't hired a realtor or business manager to even get the process started." Mmmmm, food? I'll pledge!

It's such a weird concept to throw money, and often more than you would even pay for a physical collector's edition (of a finished game no less), at a game that has a pre-estimated estimated release date of 2017. You might not even be alive then. A lot can happen in 3 long years or more. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just such a weird way to do things.

Column_sl said:

I hate central city's, that's pretty much the shit they started in EQ2.
I like races spread out all over the places, so there is more of a unique experience depending on what race you pick.

In EQ, depending on where you started it was a vastly different feeling to the world, and people remembered those starting zones till this day.

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They can account for everything regarding population spread over time, and design and place content accordingly, even with several cities. Have a dungeon below the city. Have raidable stuff nearby. Place them so that people naturally flow together while having a distinct racial home. Of course you can place one or two races in a ghetto (gnomes in WoW) but going the "Last refuge of all that is good" city style is weak world building, even moreso in a world that supposedly thrives on different factions and pantheons that are at odds.

In the end people are right there have to be trade-offs, but that does mean compromise not go all-out on game mechanics trump everything. If that was the case this would be pretty cheap to do because you dont need races for example. In the end, if I dont like the world I wont play the game. Never gave Rift a chance because lvl1-10 just didnt grab me, and that wasnt a mechanics problem. Wouldnt have played GW2 past 10 if they had forced me through the asura content either.

One thing that just came to me, didnt erudite necros start in a shack in the forest before they added paineel? That would be a solution that's a good compromise imo. Say "the ogre town is beyond this cave, but it's too much effort for now so here are 3 huts with trainers and vendors. It's immersion-breaking to a point but it doesnt feel as retarded as blood elves (who only exist because the undead wasted their lands) being chummy with forsaken. Or trolls living with dwarfs.

Since this isnt a quest-driven game maybe they can simply give more freedom of starting areas as long as there is a way to flow into level-appropriate areas. Also easier with just 20 levels.

Edit: about factions - they said several times that factions are important and will play a large role both positive and negative in shaping your character. So even if they have everyone start in one city, they'll still design the dorf kingdom so your human paladin can suck up to them for special skills. Same for elves, same for frogloks and so on. The work is being done. Theres no harm in the races then starting in their respective areas, all it takes is accounting for it while you sketch out the zone layouts.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Brad is the dead opposite of Barnett when it comes to videos , and both extreme ends of the spectrum are bad for pushing a game or KS.

Surely someone can pull off a middle ground between not sounding bored and like you'd rather be doing anything else vs screaming at the camera WAAAUGGGHH ORCS AND DWARVES SMASH the whole time.

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Georgeson does ok, I was just thinking that when watching the latest EQNL video. He seems excited to show people what they are working on while having a clear message to deliver (or PR speak if there's no meat to the video). Brad does not seem excited at all and tends to drift off into pie in the sky things (though its better in the newer vids). Barnett was just ridiculous.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

Either that or the asked if they could license a couple of his pieces that were already finished.

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Certainly possible, but he made this recently, going by this:On the rise by TARGETE on deviantART
It is called On The Rise. Being a freelancer with a huge portfolio (if you google his name you get like hundreds of pics) I think pretty much anything he makes now will likely be commisioned. But I could be wrong, he may create original work without being commisioned first, and somebody will end up licensing it.

The Archway pic has a nice atmosphere, though I think the city- and harbor architects should probably be fired. I would hate to manouver my galleon to one of those docks. Also, roads? Even so, it conveys Fantasy all right and I like it.

The thing is, to continue with the restaurant analogy, we are all starving to death. I haven't eaten a decent MMO meal in years. So yeah, this may not have been handled the best, but at this point it's the only crumb of hope we have.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Georgeson does ok, I was just thinking that when watching the latest EQNL video. He seems excited to show people what they are working on while having a clear message to deliver (or PR speak if there's no meat to the video). Brad does not seem excited at all and tends to drift off into pie in the sky things (though its better in the newer vids). Barnett was just ridiculous.

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At the same time, its much easier to be excited when you have $100 million and a staff of 40 working for you.

Dahkoht_sl said:

I'm curious on the math side of things what the daily average has to look like with an end spike. CU funded I believe with a large last day or two spike and several other KS's did also.

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I have gone over this quite a bit. Right now it needs a min 16k a days from now till the last days so it will have a chance for a huge 200k spike to fund it. You can go down a bit to 15k a day if you can get a bigger spike ect.. but it gets less and less likely the lower the daily avg is from now till those last days.