Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I'd like to see a simple lfg ui similar to planes of power eq. Back then you had the tool and it was still very community based. I remember the same asshole lfg for hours on a nightly basis. Point being that your reputation still matters.

You see a needed class in the list and send them a tell to see if they are the right fit for the group. Simple and social

LachiusTZ_sl said:

Niche game, do not need features added to find people to group with. That is part of the social construct of a good MMO.

There are a lot of times you only have 1 hr or so to play, and you log in just to chat and see what is upcoming for the days you have the time to play. Plz not another powder puff MMO catering to stupid / lazy.

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I agree. You shouldn't also be able to just /invite someone if they aren't within arms reach. The person should have to run to your group, find you, and then you should have to shake hands like real men do before going into battle. And the UI shouldn't tell you who you're grouped with. Everyone should have bandanas in the designated group colors the group leader has to sew himself.

Merlin_sl said:

It starts with a LFG tool here, then helpful map markers you can use to pinpoint locations, then easy to find quest NPC's, and so on and so on. Pretty soon its just like EQ2 or WOW.

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You're wrong. First, it starts with allowing any chat beyond /say, then a LFG channel, then everything else that ruins everything EVAR!!!

So, I think we can all agree: /say should be the only form of chat. It's the only way to keep the game from being turned into a WoW clone!

popsicledeath_sl said:

I agree. You shouldn't also be able to just /invite someone if they aren't within arms reach. The person should have to run to your group, find you, and then you should have to shake hands like real men do before going into battle. And the UI shouldn't tell you who you're grouped with. Everyone should have bandanas in the designated group colors the group leader has to sew himself.

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/()\. <(WTF lol)

popsicledeath_sl said:

You're wrong. First, it starts with allowing any chat beyond /say, then a LFG channel, then everything else that ruins everything EVAR!!!

So, I think we can all agree: /say should be the only form of chat. It's the only way to keep the game from being turned into a WoW clone!

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Even though I realize you're joking, I honestly would be ok with three chat channels: say, group and guild.

On top of that, I'd like languages to matter, and no matter how much you try to spam learn a language it would take months in real life to learn it in game. That way, if your guild is mainly humans and you bring a lizard man in to the guild, you won't understand what the fuck he's saying for a long ass time.

decent ks activity for SB sunday and no update

Chakravartin_sl said:

Well with the p99 thing done, who is getting reached out to next

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Who else is there to reach out to? I'm thinking they're about to the point they'll have to offer reach arounds.

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:

Even though I realize you're joking, I honestly would be ok with three chat channels: say, group and guild.

On top of that, I'd like languages to matter, and no matter how much you try to spam learn a language it would take months in real life to learn it in game. That way, if your guild is mainly humans and you bring a lizard man in to the guild, you won't understand what the fuck he's saying for a long ass time.

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Which would force everyone to abandon the chat channels in favor of voice chat. I could see rare languages playing a role in quests and dungeon puzzles, but this only works the first time through, then the translated text ends up on a spoiler site, or in an add on that auto translates everything.

And now a mini rant about random content generation....

Anyways, the effort to create a robust, and diverse content generation system capable of engaging players for the majority of their time in game, is considerably greater than the effort needed to create a static game world. However the two huge benefits to such a system is:
-One, that none of that initial effort becomes wasted after the first pass and all of the content introduced in this way gets utilized to it's fullest.
-And Two the exploration side of the game never truly ends. The players are constantly seeing things for the first time, provided the generator is robust enough and the variables numerous enough that repeats and templates are not as obvious or noticeable.

I am not suggesting that this is what this game should do. I am simply saying that hand crafted static content seems like a poor design model for a persistent online game, at this point, provided that is not PvP oriented.

Dumar_sl said:

There is a mountain of difference. Most lfg in EQ was done in /ooc, but that is preferred over a 'window' that pops up and shows you who is lfg for which dungeon. If you don't see this difference, think about it more:

If there is no Architect to facilitate grouping, that means the players have to seek, interact, and form groups entirely themselves. So a player who is looking for a group has to constantly monitor and read /lfg or /ooc, right? He'll see every person's name who's talking, every shout for help, every insult, every group looking for more, every everything. Maybe he'll see someone familiar and message, maybe a total stranger. Maybe he'll see someone asking for a port that he'll do while he's waiting. Maybe he'll see someone selling a shiny SMR that he's been wanting. Maybe he'll see an old guildie's name that hasn't been on in years. Thatpotentialfor interaction is lost with a lfg window.

If you put something like that in, then what will happen is that any lfg channel will largely be silent. An ooc channel will still have traffic, but much less because people won't be in it to advance their character (to lfg), so they'll exit the channel. The result is a world that's much less interactive: all because the designers thought a lfg window would help facilitate interaction, when in fact the opposite happens.

edit: I admit I don't know how well it was used in VG, but I'm thinking of every other lfg system put in place by MMOG's - they've replaced any required interaction.

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Excellent point. I've never really considered the effect lfg window could have on a game.

Dumar_sl said:

If you put something like that in, then what will happen is that any lfg channel will largely be silent. An ooc channel will still have traffic, but much less because people won't be in it to advance their character (to lfg), so they'll exit the channel.

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This is about the dumbest set of assumptions I've ever seen. Thanks Zaven for pointing it out again.

Unless you've got some sort of insider research going on, Dumar, I'm calling bullshit.

I could just as easily say a LFG window lets people advertise they're lfg without having to worry about spamming a LFG channel, so they're then freed up to spend MORE time in ooc, and with better socializing because they AREN'T just focused on trying to spam the fucking ooc channel like some idiot trying to 'advance their character' in a chat channel that isn't designed for that anyway. The result is a MORE interactive world, and with deeper interaction, all because designers realized a lfg window would help people advertise/gather information on who is lfg, so those players could interact in ways deeper and more socially binding than just spamming a lfg channel AND EVERY OTHER FUCKING CHANNEL TOO with lfg spam.

LFG tool in Vanguard was awesome (when there was a population). You'd turn on your LFG tag, maybe even what dungeon (or quest?) you were hoping to run, and then not have to make it a full time job spamming every channel with the fact you're LFG. You could go solo, or craft, or just chat with people, and other people who weren't channel spamming fucking morons would see you were lfg, where, what class you were, etc, and, get this, send you a fucking tell asking if you wanted to join.

And if you were IN a group, you could, get this, no, really, get this, you could PLAY THE FUCKING GAME instead of having to spam that you were LFM and send tells to a bunch of spamming fucking idiots like your job is suddenly to not be a member of a group and instead be the Millionaire Matchmaker interviewing a bunch of flakes to see if one of them fits the group. You just put that your group was lfm and keep playing the fucking game and let intelligent people who can read send you a tell if they were right for the group.

In short, only retards who like spamming LFG in every chat channel think spamming LFG in every chat channel is high quality social interaction that should be kept. I'd prefer a system where there was a good LFG tool providing information for people smart enough to find it, comprehend it, and then act on it. The best part is then, when you do see someone spamming LFG for like 20 minutes, they might finally resort to using the LFG tool, and you can tell them to fuck off because they're obviously an idiot because they couldn't pass the first, basic test of how to be a good player in a group based game.

The cool thing is you can still spam lfg. Even with lfg tools, I still seek classes out who aren't tagged and send tells.
Both systems work and I personally use both heh

Convo_sl said:

The cool thing is you can still spam lfg.

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Which is why I'm in favor of regional chat. In a zoned game, I think that zone should be the widest area of chat outside of guild chat. That way, if you're spamming that you're lfg, you're at least doing it with some level of relevance.

I also think limiting chat to being regional or zone wide also adds more than it takes away. Sure, it's a little bit more of a hassle, but if you need to know what's going on in the zone, you send someone there or ask a guildie if they're there or send tells to people who might be there. Keeps a sense of mystery and exploration, makes the game quieter, encourages scouting instead of just asking in global chat, gives more meaning to guild chat, and it's also kinda the only way to make a regional market system work. Otherwise you just sell shit on server-wide chat channels and arrange a meetup where it's most convenient.

Global chat is shit. The end.

Aradune_sl said:

The distinctions between LFG tools and just flagging yourself LFG in chat and shouting you're looking for a group? The latter, old school way is a little annoying to others. I'm not sure why some of you *really* don't want any UI element that lists people near you who are LFG.

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For what it's worth, in my EQ heyday (Vanilla-Velious and most of Luclin), I was a very active group leader/recruiter on my server.. mostly by necessity, as I was a warrior who was clearly useless when solo

I'd always be scanning for LFG (which many people didnt use, even if they were looking for a group, or an upgrade to a better group), but I'd also be checking /who all cleric 50 55 (sub in whichever classes were needed at the time)

It seems that many people were not actively looking to form or join a group, just standing around in town or soloing until they received the call.

This meant that people on the server got to know me, realized that I always had a killer group for good exp and loot, and I'd frequently get incoming tells saying "hey, do you have your usual Chardok/HS/Seb/etc group going again tonight? Put me on your list for the first opening". This allowed me to teach players I hadn't grouped with before, learn from others that had experience or insight that I didn't, and make tons of new friends and regular exp groupmates outside of my guild.

I think this is a good example of individual players becoming the attractant to a group, rather than just mutual need and laziness (lack of effort to reach out and contact/recruit/form a group from the ground up). Elaborate LFG tools and windows facilitate faceless, nameless replaceable groupies (not as bad as cross-server, mind you) that are just fleshbags in an open slot.

my 2c

Lithose_sl said:

EQ warriors were only awesome because most players in EQ were uniformed kids who couldn't look at anything objectively. At most you can make a point about how social conditioning is a huge factor in decision making; like when people in WoW use purple gear despite it being worse than blue. But in every conceivable way warriors were broken by the end of Velious; except as main raid tanks, you shouldn't have wanted a warrior; ever.Never.

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In the early days of eq, rangers could out tank warriors. As you noted it is quite a while before warriors were made useful.

Dumar_sl said:

There is a mountain of difference. Most lfg in EQ was done in /ooc, but that is preferred over a 'window' that pops up and shows you who is lfg for which dungeon. If you don't see this difference, think about it more:

If there is no Architect to facilitate grouping, that means the players have to seek, interact, and form groups entirely themselves. So a player who is looking for a group has to constantly monitor and read /lfg or /ooc, right? He'll see every person's name who's talking, every shout for help, every insult, every group looking for more, every everything. Maybe he'll see someone familiar and message, maybe a total stranger. Maybe he'll see someone asking for a port that he'll do while he's waiting. Maybe he'll see someone selling a shiny SMR that he's been wanting. Maybe he'll see an old guildie's name that hasn't been on in years. Thatpotentialfor interaction is lost with a lfg window.

If you put something like that in, then what will happen is that any lfg channel will largely be silent. An ooc channel will still have traffic, but much less because people won't be in it to advance their character (to lfg), so they'll exit the channel. The result is a world that's much less interactive: all because the designers thought a lfg window would help facilitate interaction, when in fact the opposite happens.

edit: I admit I don't know how well it was used in VG, but I'm thinking of every other lfg system put in place by MMOG's - they've replaced any required interaction.

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Most likely because people are using tells. I don't think moving some group formation discussion from public channels to tells is bad nor a failure.

Dumar_sl said:

In every case of a 'evolution' of this genre, it's a further limiting of the people you interact with, from soloing, groups, to raids. A windowed list of lfg players requires no interaction whatsoever to find them, to know who they are. A list will show you everything about them: name, class, level, what they're looking for. You've done nothing to find this group of players except bring up a screen.

A chat window is a UI element, but it's one that requires you to interact with everyone to meet your goal of finding a group or another to fill yours. The chat window requires you to interact with possibly tons of different people every single time you use it. The lfg window requires no participation, and all the information that you would've gathered on your own via interacting with others, that socialized process, is all done for you and displayed as a discrete list on a screen.

If we're talking massively interactive, this isn't an evolution of the genre. This functionality is a regressive one because it doesn't facilitate people interacting. It does it for them.

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Yeah forcing people to go anon as healers because every git in the game would send them tells asking them if they wanted to join their group was much better than just having a system where people who want to group could easily make it known.

You way overplay the social aspects at trying to find out who is and is not looking for group. There is plenty of socializing to be had even with a lfg tool with the added benefit that everyone in a group or doing something else does not have to go anon.

You act like /oot looking for two dps is creating a much more engaging social experience than looking at a lfg window and sending tells to people who actively want to group. I don't see any improved socialization at all and there are actually downsides.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Who else is there to reach out to? I'm thinking they're about to the point they'll have to offer reach arounds.

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boogie's fans aren't really mmo players. He needs someone legit like...towelie, lol

Merlin_sl said:

Its a really tough call here but I have to agree with Dumar. As convenient and painless this is, when you start introducing tools into the game such as this LFG tool, what is happening here? Your reducing the direct communication involved in the process of finding a group. Its all packed nice and neat in a handy little tool and everyone is just "whispering" to each other behind the scenes. What is this doing? It is eliminating the need to use the OOC, SHOUT, etc.. channels. I think of it like the current guild halls. Yes, its very convenient and handy to have portals, healing, vendors, guild banks, and all crafting vendors and supplies right there at your fingertips, but this has created a very closed community where the streets, towns, and cities are all graveyards. They look like your local city on Christmas morning. EMPTY. Meanwhile everyone is hiding out in guild halls porting directly to their destination (via guild flags) in to their own instance where they don't have to see or communicate with anyone outside the guild, then when done raiding, they port right back to the guild hall.
This kind of tool while handy, seems to me to be the first step in having convenience take the place of communication. I wouldn't be opposed per-say, but imagining everyone just sending direct tells to each other then getting on vent just seems to me to be the opposite of where we are trying to go here. Its closing off the community rather than opening it up.

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These are things that SHOULD be discussed in whispers and tells not public and global channels.

Some people act like whispers and tells are not player interaction.

Torrid_sl said:

2h aggro was buffed in Velious (I recall tanking Vymm with a primal 2h for our first kill), but if you used a 2h over a Bloodfrenzy in Luclin, then you were certifiable. Guilds farmed Cursed well into PoP for those.

I took a break in Luclin so I never got a Bloodfrenzy, but I loved the shit out of my SoD and used that until my BoW. SoDs were just as much aggro as BoCs and slightly higher dps. Screw 2Hs without a hate proc.

Also, somebody's idea of 'aggroing fine' is quite subjective. Just because mobs aren't coming off you just means the casters aren't stupid enough to waste healer mana. Their DPS could be limited but you'd never know it without asking.

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The formula for aggro generation from weapon swings in EverQuest has always been weapon damage+weapon damage bonus; for example a Blade of Carnage had 15 damage and 13 damage bonus at level 60 which means it would generate 28 hate ever swing, ripostes count as swings double attacks count as two swings, etc. Damage bonus only applied for weapons in the primary slot; weapons in the secondary slot always had a damage bonus of 0 which means that a Blade of Carnage being wielded in the off hand would only generate 15 hate every swing. Also the hate is generated from the swing itself and isn't affected by the damage dealt which means that a miss would generate the same hate as a max damage critical hit. Also they didn't change the formula in Velious; what they did was change the power of the 2 hand weapons that droped in Temple of Veeshan to have significantly more power than they initially did which as a result made them generate more aggro. For example when Velious first launched the Palladus' Axe of Slaughter was a 40dmg 42dly weapon; it was later changed to be a 51dmg, 42dly weapon. At level 60 the Palladus' Axe of Slaughter would have damage bonus of 34 which made it generate 74 hate per swing originally and a very respectable 85 hate per swing after changes.

The true story is that dual wield actually sucked and wasn't very good at generating hate; wasn't very good at doing DPS and had the bad side effect of exposing the warrior to extra damage from mob ripostes and damage shields. Sure a warrior could wield 2 weapons with hate procs but the proc rate at 205-255 dexterity only allowed their primary weapon to proc an average of 1.5 times per minute(about once every 40 seconds) and their off hand weapon to proc a measly .75 times a minute(about once every 80 seconds); making any supposed bonus from the extra procs pretty much irrelevant. The exception of course is the the Bloodfrenzy which had a proc rate bonus that allowed it's hate proc to happen far more often than the normal 1.5 times per minute(.75 times per minute in off hand) that every other weapon before it was restricted to; finally giving warriors a weapon that was actually worth dual wielding. However Bloodfrenzy was a rare drop off of a mob with a 6 day spawn timer so very few warriors had it making 2 handers the weapon of choice for all but the luckiest warriors(or warriors too stupid to understand the mechanics of the game and insisted on dual wielding anyway).

Furor might have bemoaned the fact that "a warrior was only as good as his weapon" but that is one of the features I actually liked about the warrior because I loved the mathematics behind what made particular weapons better than others. Even a non-raider could buy an Argent Protector(42dmg, 49dly) from the bazaar for a few thousand platinum and hold aggro just fine in groups; without causing the DPS to drop off significantly. Aggro management in EverQuest was a shared responsibility which is something that I always liked and something that has been sorely lacking in games since.

Nemesis_sl said:

I'd always be scanning for LFG (which many people didnt use, even if they were looking for a group, or an upgrade to a better group), but I'd also be checking /who all cleric 50 55 (sub in whichever classes were needed at the time)

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I did this all of the time as well and could often get people not flagged lfg to come and join me and was able to make many friends that way. Forming groups was never hard in EverQuest unless you were unwilling to put in the limited amount of effort required to do so.