Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
This is almost as bad as the guys who voted that you should not be able to do anything to your UI, not even move around pieces... It's like some people literally want Everquest Circa 1999 release.
I'm totally for this. Fuck custom UIs right in their ugly donkey mouth. Making your playerbase create a HUD of a jet fighter AND update it every patch? And when you're forced to update, it breaks something so you have to realign all your stupid little fighter jet graphs and buttons.

Never want to see it again.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
I'm totally for this. Fuck custom UIs right in their ugly donkey mouth. Making your playerbase create a HUD of a jet fighter AND update it every patch? And when you're forced to update, it breaks something so you have to realign all your stupid little fighter jet graphs and buttons.

Never want to see it again.
Why is it a problem for you if someone else wants to update their HUD every patch to look like a jet fighter? How and the fuck is that any business of yours? If you don't want to customize your UI then don't. I swear half the shit you cry about is easily skipped if you want to, but your problem is that you want to dictate what others can do as well.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
Did he say it was?

When their budget is coming from the players it is something to be concerned about. Them going over budget means if you guys want the game you will have to hand over more money. It is a topic that I think even the devoted should be having with Brad. What are they doing to make sure they stay on, or under budget? They are not playing with the money from a multibillion dollar company anymore. They absolutely can not go "whoops... the money is gone LOL".
Pretty much this. This is where the blind faith comes in to an extent. Just because we're not devs, It's an individual thing. Where should they be in say 6 months, if they have been funded and working full time? What type of progress should they have shown at that point? I think it needs to be apparent and exceeding expectations. I just don't know what those expectations are. It's different for everyone. I really can't say how I'll feel at that point.. If the game is still missing obviously shit like simple race art? I'd be gone.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,290
85,980
I'd imagine VR has even less financial accountability with their current funding scheme than they would with a legitimate corporate publisher. It's going to be a total shitfest when this thing goes bust though and the contributors start demanding their money back.
They can demand anything they want. They won't get a penny back though. As you said, no financial accountability and that's just the way it should be.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Pretty much this. This is where the blind faith comes in to an extent. Just because we're not devs, It's an individual thing. Where should they be in say 6 months, if they have been funded and working full time? What type of progress should they have shown at that point? I think it's needs to be apparent and exceeding expectations. I just don't know what those expectations are. It's different for everyone. I really can't say how I'll feel at that point.. If the game is still missing obviously shit like simple race art? I'd be gone.
The thing everyone needs to keep in mind now is that they have officially been paid. This can no longer be something they do part time on the weekends in Brad's garage. They need to be pumping out real work, real fast. These guys need to be producing in-game content now. Not concept art, not soulless landscape shots that they tossed together in a single afternoon. Which honestly they should of had already, but we have already been over that heh.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,290
85,980
Pretty much this. This is where the blind faith comes in to an extent. Just because we're not devs, It's an individual thing. Where should they be in say 6 months,if they have been fundedand working full time? What type of progress should they have shown at that point? I think it's needs to be apparent and exceeding expectations. I just don't know what those expectations are. It's different for everyone. I really can't say how I'll feel at that point.. If the game is still missing obviously shit like simple race art? I'd be gone.
Convo,

I think this is exactly where people differ in their opinions from you. Some of the shit we were expecting doesn't need funding to be shown. There is a lot of the work that a dedicated and passionate team can do without lots of funding. The problem is that no real work was done until AFTER the KS started. That leaves a very bad taste when you are wanting passionate fans to support your project. I still see very little passion from that team. It is getting better but Brad's already laying out the lies and it's still early.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,277
2,302
Why is it a problem for you if someone else wants to update their HUD every patch to look like a jet fighter? How and the fuck is that any business of yours? If you don't want to customize your UI then don't. I swear half the shit you cry about is easily skipped if you want to, but your problem is that you want to dictate what others can do as well.
Because people like him are not happy enough with that, they want to force their "Ways" onto the rest of the population. If they are not using it then no one should be.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Why is it a problem for you if someone else wants to update their HUD every patch to look like a jet fighter? How and the fuck is that any business of yours? If you don't want to customize your UI then don't. I swear half the shit you cry about is easily skipped if you want to, but your problem is that you want to dictate what others can do as well.
Because it gives them an advantage through more information. It's no longer a fantasy world when sitting on your screen is a real-time plot of damage over time.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
Convo,

I think this is exactly where people differ in their opinions from you. Some of the shit we were expecting doesn't need funding to be shown. There is a lot of the work that a dedicated and passionate team can do without lots of funding. The problem is that no real work was done until AFTER the KS started. That leaves a very bad taste when you are wanting passionate fans to support your project. I still see very little passion from that team. It is getting better but Brad's already laying out the lies and it's still early.
Yea, I understand. Their initial approach sucked. It's what lead to the uphill battle their in.

Lost- I don't know what they should show. The zones wont befully passed by artist. Should they show it anyway? I think they should.. Multiple zones/dungeons with that disclaimer. You'll still see the stupid remarks of how bad the graphics are.. But I'd be more interested to see how much is in.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,277
2,302
Because it gives them an advantage through more information. It's no longer a fantasy world when sitting on your screen is a real-time plot of damage over time.
It's funny coming from a guy who repeatedly calls the current MMO market shit but wants to go back to where the players have no clue what's going on and the developers can do whatever they want as they hide behind the "mystery". More information is good, and if you refuse to want to see it, then that's your own dumb fault.
 

kudos

<Banned>
2,363
695
The zones wont befully passed by artist. Should they show it anyway?
They fucking showed that garbage they tried to pass off as a dungeon in progress and also the horribly made in-game landscape they pieced together in 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Yea, I understand. Their initial approach sucked. It's what lead to the uphill battle their in.

Lost- I don't know what they should show. The zones wont befully passed by artist. Should they show it anyway? I think they should.. Multiple zones/dungeons with that disclaimer. You'll still see the stupid remarks of how bad the graphics are.. But I'd be more interested to see how much is in.
Absolutely they should show it. While some people might pick fault with anything they do at this point some simple honesty goes a long way. Something that Brad seems to seriously struggle with. The guy seems incapable of pulling his head out of his ass and just having a honest dialog with his players. We don't need any of his devspeak PR bullshit. He can save that for the fangirls who just eat it up.

They should show dungeons and zones. Explaining that they haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb for shadows/details is perfectly fine. Show us in game raw footage. Just a quick run around even a empty zone is at least something interesting. The current screenshots are staged garbage. It is the same tactic they used on Microsoft.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
It's funny coming from a guy who repeatedly calls the current MMO market shit but wants to go back to where the players have no clue what's going on and the developers can do whatever they want as they hide behind the "mystery". More information is good, and if you refuse to want to see it, then that's your own dumb fault.
I think there is a bit of a middle ground there, no? There is a reason why Esports don't allow mods, and there is a reason why most guilds require them. It's not just personal choice; mods make players fundamentally more powerful. It'sNOTjust a "reduction in tedium" to, for example, change an environmental cue from rocks falling, into a huge message that shakes your screen and flashes red and kicks in the song "move bitch, get out the way" (heh, we had a mod that did that over Vent.)

I mean, hell, when I was getting glad--there is NO WAY I'd have lasted ten seconds against some of the really good guys, my instincts in terms of timings just weren't good enough. But I had a mod that told me when their interrupts were down, or how long on bubbles or AP or any number of long CDs--having those mods, made it a ton easier to focus on the actual twitch, while coordinating our timings to strike when they were weakest. It literally made me able to compete against people I should NOT have been able to (Because many of the very high end PvPers can keep track of that in their head, and still focus on the PvP.) Since they had reached that "ceiling" the mods really didn't help them, there was no where for them to go in terms of skill (WoW only ha so many APM's) but for me? It made a huge difference.

Displaying information? Is a MASSIVE market. We live in the age of Smart Phones and Tablets, there are people that make huge pay checks for doing nothing but studying how best to display information. How information is displayed is a big deal in game design, and allowing the players absolute control over that gives them a lot of unforeseen advantages. And that makes it double edged sword. Because it forces you to make certain elements of the game more difficult, just to counter those advantages. I mean, look at cleansing in WoW (Even after the auto-cleanse nerf). It eventually got so stupid they had to get rid of it. Now I know a lot of people will say "BUT THAT WAS TEDIUM!!! NOT DIFFICULTY!!"--well, moving out of the fire in 1 second is also tedium then, because all it is is testing a reaction. (And the line between "tedium" and "difficulty" is often a manner of perception/opinion, and not a hard/fast rule. Some people find chess difficult, others find it's plodding pace tedious, I wouldn't call either 'wrong".)

And reaction time? Is as much about the ergonomics of displays as it is about the ergonomics of inputs. UI modding is something that has good and bad aspects to it. I really love UI modding, I do. But if I were a developer? It's something I'd have to design a game around, because it can become a monster VERY quickly. And I think some of the worst "simon says" aspects of modern raiding, have stemmed from unlimited power in terms of display. (And, some of the best aspects of UI design have stemmed from the very same thing--so like I said, double edged sword.)

Anyway, sorry if I jumped into this without context
smile.png
...But I just think the whole UI thing is such a HUGE part of MMO's that it's hard to fathom why it's absurd that some people would rather have it be static. It seems pretty logical to me if you want a more strategy/deliberate pace in your MMO, that controlling the UI would be a huge concern.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
They fucking showed that garbage they tried to pass off as a dungeon in progress and also the horribly made in-game landscape they pieced together in 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon.
What, sunken sanctum? Why is that garbage??
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,277
2,302
Oh I agree there is a middle ground. I think WoW goes a bit too far but Dumar is the opposite extreme. Things like the current teso UI are way too minimal.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
Oh I agree there is a middle ground. I think WoW goes a bit too far but Dumar is the opposite extreme. Things like the current teso UI are way too minimal.
Yeah, I can see that. One of the things I hated in SWTOR was the fact that the UI didn't even have parameter changes at first. There is definitely some push and pull there, nothing will ruin a game quicker than a crappy UI. It was always maddening to have a great game, and then have a UI that just made you want to break it. Allowing players some control can salve that.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
I'm totally for this. Fuck custom UIs right in their ugly donkey mouth. Making your playerbase create a HUD of a jet fighter AND update it every patch? And when you're forced to update, it breaks something so you have to realign all your stupid little fighter jet graphs and buttons.

Never want to see it again.
I can see the argument behind having the ability to use custom UI's but my comment was not about that. I was referring to the people who argue moving the default UI around. Yes there are people who don't even want the player to be able to move the windows around...

As for Custom UI's, that's pretty simple. Just allow cosmetic changes but don't allow them to see information that the default can't. I can't think of any UI mods in Everquest that gave the player an unfair advantage over someone that used default. I know that many people think Everquest had a limited ability to customize but I think it worked pretty well.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Did he say it was?

When their budget is coming from the players it is something to be concerned about. Them going over budget means if you guys want the game you will have to hand over more money. It is a topic that I think even the devoted should be having with Brad. What are they doing to make sure they stay on, or under budget? They are not playing with the money from a multibillion dollar company anymore. They absolutely can not go "whoops... the money is gone LOL".
Time will tell. If there is a game someday I would likely play it... But seriously, you can say what you wrote above about any Kickstarter... there have been many, but how many KS have failed to produce a quality product ( we will be finding out about a lot of them real soon)? I think the next 2 years are going to be interesting as far as what KS actually launch a good product and what are bitter disappointments that fans paid for...

The funny thing ? Everyone even AAA developers are crowd funding their projects ( obsidian, SOE for example ) with promises of something that is not in a real game yet. Frankly, I think its disgusting no matter who does it, we should be paying for a finished product and nothing less...

At least Brad's project and other KS are trying to do something that the mainstream AAA's are not... that was the reason I was not put off as I usually am to crowd funding... i.e. something that wouldn't get made unless we helped it along.

In the end none of this is very good for us as consumers imo.