Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mr Creed · Jan 11, 2014

tad10_sl said:
/rant on

I'm coming to actually hate the Oculus Rift. It started with Butler wearing one in that EQN video and before and since then it seems like every fucking thread on a new MMO has at least ten "will it support the Rift?" posts and I'm like did Oculus VR sell like 5,000,000 rifts when I wasn't looking? And since I'm pretty sure they didn't, I just assume everyone who is asking about it doesn't have one and isn't getting one anytime soon. So can we focus on getting a game that works on everyday computers that everybody already owns?

/rant off

Come on Tad who doesnt own a rift these days? You also still using that nokia just because it'll never ever break before the sun explodes?

TragedyAnn_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Soygen_sl said:
Honestly, there are no details on the Kickstarter at all, let alone what the stretch goals are. Brad has mentioned features(such as PVP) that could possibly be stretch goals, but there are 0 concrete details about anything at this point.

Ah ok. I had seen a few posts where Aradune had said this or that will probably be stretch goals. So was just wondering if anything had been said about crafting/harvesting. Hard to weed through all the bickering sometimes

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
Furthermore, your support of FD splitting is absolutely irrational, and not you or anyone else has provided a decent explaination for your support of it.

Caliane · Jan 11, 2014

yeah. LoL I would bet does have a good ratio.
And did basically NAIL the sweet spot of intrusion.

The fact on the surface you even may think, its all cosmetic. but as others noted. Runes, rune pages, or buying champs.
Skins were the only thing you can't buy with Ip directly. Although champion deals at release are also real money for the champ and skin. And now ward and summoner skins.

But people do buy those things with money.
The raw volume of skins. I would bet LoL's revenue is mostly from cosmetics, but definitely not entirely.

The other problem is this just doesn't translate into most MMO's.
LoL is all about releasing constant champions for those skins. You COULD have an mmo that uses this format. Like realm of the mad god, or dungeon defenders. But most don't.
Should WoW remove the artwork from new teirs of gear, and instead sell those new gear visuals separate? and add emotes, etc to make packages? Dunno. but most mmo cosmetic sales kindof suck. horse armor type shit. $10 for a cape...

PoE probably is a better example. its closer to a mmo.

My personal anecdote was. I gave money for early access first, as well as the long term funds. got the pet, got tabs. and picked up some new spell animations when released.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

TragedyAnn_sl said:
Ah ok. I had seen a few posts where Aradune had said this or that will probably be stretch goals. So was just wondering if anything had been said about crafting/harvesting. Hard to weed through all the bickering sometimes

I hope it's in. Not because I'm a huge crafter but I just see the value in it. Especially if we get back to the days of bag space mini games and such.

Mr Creed · Jan 11, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
See, this is interesting. I completely agree with Tuco, but it's interesting to examinewhythis is the case. I think, and I think most people agree, that the cause is due to the focus of most games being purely combat oriented. Draegen was talking about it earlier, how leveling systems could be tied to achieving goals, rather than killing monsters, so progress in the game isn't all tied to "reduce HP to zero=win". And while I don't think Brad and Co should focus on exploring that too much, because it would be REALLY pushing the limits of what you can do with programming right now (And from the looks, focus is a key goal this time around)--I think it's an interesting thought exercise on how we perceive progress in MMO's, and it's one being explored in other genres (Especially stealth ones).

The only reason DPS needs to be that ubiquitous is because progress is so tied to health reduction of enemies. In table tops, that's not really the case--and I think the biggest display of how this has affected classes is the difference between the table top rogue, and the "MMO Rogue". You can see how the rogue has been turned from this largely non-combat class (Or a class meant to resolve problems without the opponent fighting), into a class that's a pure offensive combat class--all because of the whole genres technical limitations. And in a lot of cases it feels very constricting and bland because of how ubiquitous DPS needs to be.

Anyway, not sure how I'd fix that without some crazy AI that allowed someone to design all sorts of different paths for completing progression. But it's something that should be kept in mind when designing classes--DPS classes should also have a broad range of utility that works outside of combat but makes encounters easier. Like lock picking, or tracking of feign death--or a host of other utilities that give DPS unique roles to make up for the fact that their primary job has to be shared among all the classes.

I would laugh my ass off if they could make a pure debuff/CC role rogue with mediocre damage. The tears would be enough to grow a jungle in the Sahara.

Merlin_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
Why is this guy still here. He's clearly trolling the forum. He's against open dungeons, FD pulling, and now DPS. He's like the anti-Christ of Everquest. How do I put this moron on ignore already?

Putting him on ignore is not a stretch goal. Its a priority.

Quaid · Jan 11, 2014

Convo, I'm not looking for a real world precedent for feign death working. It's a fantasy game and those arguments are largely irrelevant.

I'm talking about it's effectiveness as a gameplay mechanic. It adds as much to gameplay as it detracts from it.

Quineloe · Jan 11, 2014

The raw volume of skins. I would bet LoL's revenue is mostly from cosmetics, but definitely not entirely.

I'd really like to see hard numbers released by the game administration. The only hard numbers I've ever seen I already mentioned, and they were pretty clear on what people are spending money on.

Caliane · Jan 11, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
I would laugh my ass off if they could make a pure debuff/CC role rogue with mediocre damage. The tears would be enough to grow a jungle in the Sahara.

DnDonline totally did have int rogues... unfortunately, as he notes. they were generally not all that welcome. as str/damage rogues killed things faster, and all the lockpicking, debuffs, stealth, traps, etc were easily handled by wands and spells that do the same thing.

As he says, progress is always tied to enemy hp.
And when there ARE uses for out of combat skills, almost invariably there are alternatives to access that content.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
Convo, I'm not looking for a real world precedent for feign death working. It's a fantasy game and those arguments are largely irrelevant.

I'm talking about it's effectiveness as a gameplay mechanic. It adds as much to gameplay as it detracts from it.

In EQ maybe.. That doesn't mean it can't be used. There is a place for all types of utility. Just needs to be done smartly. Certain mobs can be completely resistant to it, it could be put on a long cool down, etc.. I think all classes need some Utility and also need to have some value within a group at any particular time outside their typical role of healing, tanking, dps.. So just scrapping shit because it doesn't make sense... doesn't work for me. I'd much rather keep it and make it a more workable/non game breaking ability. which can be done. IMO... I'd be shocked if Monks were in at launch tho

Merlin_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Abefroman_sl said:
Fuck Quad kiting. I almost went crazy in cobal scar doing that sht. So boring. While I'm at it. If this game has hell levels I will fucking sue.

Quad kiting was a blast. It was a great way to kill time if you couldn't get a group, and you could sell the gems to the vendor, or other players trying to complete the Velious gear quests. Boring? I guess it could be boring, right up till one of your snares broke and you were being chased across the zone by multiple angry mobs. That was the skill. To resnare the mobs, then manage to get them back with the main group and continue.

Quaid · Jan 11, 2014

Convo_sl said:
In EQ maybe.. That doesn't mean it can't be used. There is a place for all types of utility. Just needs to be done smartly. Certain mobs can be completely resistant to it, it could be put on a long cool down, etc.. I think all classes need some Utility and also need to have some value within a group at any particular time outside their typical role of healing, tanking, dps.. So just scrapping shit because it doesn't make sense... doesn't work for me. I'd much rather keep it and make it a more workable/non game breaking ability. which can be done. IMO... I'd be shocked if Monks were in at launch tho

Ok ya... Fine... I'll submit to the argument that you could design every encounter in the world to take into account the implications of FD splitting, but that simply wasn't done in EQ.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
Quad kiting was a blast. It was a great way to kill time if you couldn't get a group, and you could sell the gems to the vendor, or other players trying to complete the Velious gear quests. Boring? I guess it could be boring, right up till one of your snares broke and you were being chased across the zone by multiple angry mobs. That was the skill. To resnare the mobs, then manage to get them back with the main group and continue.

I loved quading on my wizard. It was even better that there were 2 items in the game that made it easier for me once I obtained them. You can't beat shit like that. I hope the team takes a hard look at quading.

Araysar · Jan 11, 2014

I played a monk as my main.

I loved FD pulling as a game mechanic, it was a lot of fun and involved as lot of skill - but even I acknowledge that it was obviously a broken game mechanic.

Mr Creed · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
It troubles me that classes are included in stretch goals. 'What can players do?' should have been one of the first questions answered in the initial design. Why does a class exist if it doesn't have a role that is critical in answering a problem that the game's MOBs present? If said class is a stretch goal, that implies it's job can be done by some other, already included, class.

I suppose as long as all roles they want in their game are defined, extra classes that fill those roles differently and possibly have a different set of the generally available utilities are no big deal. It's not like Berserkers (up until I quit) brought anything really new to the table, and beastlords while more interesting were a variation on shaman.

Quaid_sl said:
Less like GW2 and more like TESO.... But weapon skills would simply be moves you do with your weapons. No buffs or spells or whatever.

For example, a 2 handed sword:

Skill 1: basic 'auto' attack, single target slash.
Skill 2: big swing, AOE around caster
Skill 3: downward swing, large single target dmg, AOE frontal ground impact
Skill 4: hilt bash, medium dmg + spell interrupt

You know that's what GW2's take on weapon skills was, right? They took it one step further and asked themselves how a ranger would use a sword differently from a warrior and that's what they build into their game. I liked it, but their overall variety of selectable skills (the right half of the skill bar) was just weak compared to GW1.

And honestly I wouldnt mind something like that here. PoE does the same, some skills only work with certain weapons because of the very nature of the skill. Puncture is fine with a spear or dagger, try piercing someone with a great maul though? ...Stunning bash with a hammer or mace but not with a rapier, etc. A weapon should not automatically force 5 specific skills on you and that's it though. Instead, have some base abilities that really only do damage, and you raise weapon skill you get choices of more skills to build YOUR character (no respecs but you can spend higher points to buy a lower one if you must). Put some persistance and personality into character development here, I dont want everything to be interchangeable.

In the same vein, meaningful racials please. And yea its ok if the ogre has a tanking edge over the halfling because he's a fucking ogre. I'm sure the halfling gets his time to shine when someone needs grubs foraged.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
Ok ya... Fine... I'll submit to the argument that you could design every encounter in the world to take into account the imications of FD splitting, but that simply wasn't done in EQ.

There were a lot of things they didn't put much effort into fixing in EQ=P..

I guess my overall point to all this is my hope that group content is constantly forcing us to change our tactics within a single play session. If that were to be the case more utility options are better since mobs will react differently to our abilities. Hopefully anyway. overall it wont bother me one bit but it will make a class a little less fun for someone else.

TragedyAnn_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Convo_sl said:
I hope it's in. Not because I'm a huge crafter but I just see the value in it. Especially if we get back to the days of bag space mini games and such.

Yes. Totally agree. I'm not a big crafter either. I think it's important to community and economy in game. BUT I will say I'd rather have it done well rather than just thrown in as an after thought. If that means waiting longer for it, cool.

shabushabu · Jan 11, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
See, this is interesting. I completely agree with Tuco, but it's interesting to examinewhythis is the case. I think, and I think most people agree, that the cause is due to the focus of most games being purely combat oriented. Draegen was talking about it earlier, how leveling systems could be tied to achieving goals, rather than killing monsters, so progress in the game isn't all tied to "reduce HP to zero=win". And while I don't think Brad and Co should focus on exploring that too much, because it would be REALLY pushing the limits of what you can do with programming right now (And from the looks, focus is a key goal this time around)--I think it's an interesting thought exercise on how we perceive progress in MMO's, and it's one being explored in other genres (Especially stealth ones).

The only reason DPS needs to be that ubiquitous is because progress is so tied to health reduction of enemies. In table tops, that's not really the case--and I think the biggest display of how this has affected classes is the difference between the table top rogue, and the "MMO Rogue". You can see how the rogue has been turned from this largely non-combat class (Or a class meant to resolve problems without the opponent fighting), into a class that's a pure offensive combat class--all because of the whole genres technical limitations. And in a lot of cases it feels very constricting and bland because of how ubiquitous DPS needs to be.

Anyway, not sure how I'd fix that without some crazy AI that allowed someone to design all sorts of different paths for completing progression. But it's something that should be kept in mind when designing classes--DPS classes should also have a broad range of utility that works outside of combat but makes encounters easier. Like lock picking, or tracking of feign death--or a host of other utilities that give DPS unique roles to make up for the fact that their primary job has to be shared among all the classes.

DDO did it... you get XP for dungeon completion... and You don't necessarily have to KILL everything to do so ( you can stealth through sometimes, or there are puzzles etc )..... you know like real D&D..

Mr Creed · Jan 11, 2014

Convo_sl said:
In EQ maybe.. That doesn't mean it can't be used. There is a place for all types of utility. Just needs to be done smartly. Certain mobs can be completely resistant to it, it could be put on a long cool down, etc.. I think all classes need some Utility and also need to have some value within a group at any particular time outside their typical role of healing, tanking, dps.. So just scrapping shit because it doesn't make sense... doesn't work for me. I'd much rather keep it and make it a more workable/non game breaking ability. which can be done. IMO... I'd be shocked if Monks were in at launch tho

Could have FD on hunters, it's been done before!

But different mobs reacting in different ways to FD would be a fine tuning point, because it's dev discretion at any step of the way. As Enchanter half your spellbook was switching back and forth between overpowered, obselete, or intentionally disabled *every* expansion. So it's not like that is a new solution. Maybe have everyone at a baseline FD resist of 10% and ogres/trolls go up 10% per consecutive FD while erudites go up 50% per FD.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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