Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
This is so simple, really it is. The reason these games fail is because they institute game mechanics that encourage players to speed through the content on the easiest path possible and when you hit the end in a couple months, there is no other reason to continue to play. Your not invested in your character, your friends, the game, the lore, nothing. Because its all fast food. Race through drive through, grab your burger, chow it down at lightening speed and then what? Roll back through drive through? Why? You've already had the Big Mac. These games are not fostering any sort of community or commitment. Your invested in nothing so leaving is easy. The games give players no reason to play beyond the initial 2-5 months. You've already maxed your level, you already have great gear, you really didn't talk to many people so your not leaving behind friends. You can now do in 2-6 months what took the average player in Everquest a year. People in EQ were invested in their characters, the lore, the dungeons, they made tons of friends. There was a reason to continue playing and logging on even when they were not able to play that evening or they were waiting for a raid etc....Christ even players who had retired would log back on just to chat with their guildmates. Find that outside of Everquest or WOW. Good luck.
Even if you are correct, you don't fix it by making a game exactly like EQ. You look at the specific details of why people don't invest as much time into games now. Using a chat channel instead of an LFG tool is not going to suddenly make the game have a much better community that will keep people hooked.

On another note that was recently discussed: I do not think that allowing people to teleportoutof dungeons is going to make the game worse either. I think that allowing people to zone out is actually a huge benefit to the game as it makes it easier to keep groups rolling as people do not have to enter together and leave together. If a guy leaves then you might have to pick up another guy from the entrance, which I think is fine. Forcing people to have to leave in a group just makes it so that the whole group has to stop playing when the first person wants to leave, or you screw that person over.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,765
So you didn't even need the LFG tool. (also note you were a cleric). Imagine that. A cleric who didn't have a problem finding groups? That can't be!!! SHOCKING!@
I also didn't have trouble as a wizard or rogue or shaman.

The point was my guild hung out and we took less time than a tool does currently. You said that it was the tools that kill the community. The tools don't, the problem lies deeper in the game.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
44,456
53,951
So you didn't even need the LFG tool. (also note you were a cleric). Imagine that. A cleric who didn't have a problem finding groups? That can't be!!! SHOCKING!@
I was a paladin and I didn't have a problem finding groups. My guild groups would take me for a dps slot if they had an opening.
 

Aradune_sl

shitlord
188
0
Even if you are correct, you don't fix it by making a game exactly like EQ. You look at the specific details of why people don't invest as much time into games now. Using a chat channel instead of an LFG tool is not going to suddenly make the game have a much better community that will keep people hooked.

On another note that was recently discussed: I do not think that allowing people to teleportoutof dungeons is going to make the game worse either. I think that allowing people to zone out is actually a huge benefit to the game as it makes it easier to keep groups rolling as people do not have to enter together and leave together. If a guy leaves then you might have to pick up another guy from the entrance, which I think is fine. Forcing people to have to leave in a group just makes it so that the whole group has to stop playing when the first person wants to leave, or you screw that person over.
I think I agree with you -- porting out and calling it a night works for me.

Awesome thread... it twisted and turned a bit, but mostly stayed on track. Great feedback too, thanks.

The distinctions between LFG tools and just flagging yourself LFG in chat and shouting you're looking for a group? The latter, old school way is a little annoying to others. I'm not sure why some of you *really* don't want any UI element that lists people near you who are LFG.

I shall return to the team the next design meeting and argue against dungeon finders.
 

rhinohelix

Dental Dammer
<Gold Donor>
3,267
5,437
I see a pattern emerging here. No one actually needs the LFG tool it would appear.
LOL you sly devil you. It is 2014 and this game will be in 2017 at the earliest. It needs an LFG tool.
That is because we were all the 1% awesome-sauce and groups' panties were always dampened at the mention of our names, no matter what class we were playing at the time.

The care-bear, on-rails, sad-facedothersneed a LFG tool though. And F that command-line text-only BS in the A. It's the 21st century and we use graphic interfaces up in these MFers.
 

Izo

Tranny Chaser
20,025
24,960
I think I agree with you -- porting out and calling it a night works for me.

Awesome thread... it twisted and turned a bit, but mostly stayed on track. Great feedback too, thanks.

The distinctions between LFG tools and just flagging yourself LFG in chat and shouting you're looking for a group? The latter, old school way is a little annoying to others. I'm not sure why some of you *really* don't want any UI element that lists people near you who are LFG.

I shall return to the team the next design meeting and argue against dungeon finders.
I'm confused. Are we giving you money or not?
 

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
.

I shall return to the team the next design meeting and argue against dungeon finders.
Spot on Brad,

I don't mind something that flags people LFG either but the "Dungeon finder" kills community. When it came out in BC wow I never used it, but it slowly took over and helped turn the game into a single player game with 3d xbox live like lobbys.
 

Graye_sl

shitlord
47
0
For the size of the game (at launch) it only needs to be the size of Antonica... or Qalia or Thestra (thestra is bigger than all of EQ1 at launch though)

That is still big enough for regional trade/AH's. Even post rift addition, that is a 10 minute "run" from one side to the other.. With a max speed flying mount, max RS buff, best mount mods.... Cut out flight, and you have a 20-30 minute trek. Cut out rifting and you have an hour + trip via lvl 10 mount and rs buff.

I know... I "ran" from Dahknarg to Khal on VG's zero day...

I ran from Qeynos to Gfay in EQ (about a 1-1.5 hr trip).

That is more than adequate for regional trade, and plenty of justification for a "limited" porting system via players.

Reading what VRI said about ports, it is similar (sans the lore/guards) to the system we were setting up at the forge. It will be really cool if they follow true to it. It won't "OP" any one class's ability as taxi either. There are various tradeoffs. We haven't been privy to everything yet.

With all the info I've shot their way, and what they've presented... I'm confident that they do have a strong plan for what they want, they're just tweaking some for their audience.

Hmm. New race leak:

baby-hedgehog.png
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
That is because we were all the 1% awesome-sauce and groups' panties were always dampened at the mention of our names, no matter what class we were playing at the time.

The care-bear, on-rails, sad-facedothersneed a LFG tool though. And F that command-line text-only BS in the A. It's the 21st century and we use graphic interfaces up in these MFers.
This is actually true. If you get in to a guild, doesn't even have to be a raiding guild, pretty much any guild will provide the opportunity for endless groups. Raiding guilds are considerably more organized and easier to advance, but grouping shouldn't be an issue after level 20 or so (going by the old standard for leving).
 

Aradune_sl

shitlord
188
0
This is so simple, really it is. The reason these games fail is because they institute game mechanics that encourage players to speed through the content on the easiest path possible and when you hit the end in a couple months, there is no other reason to continue to play. Your not invested in your character, your friends, the game, the lore, nothing. Because its all fast food. Race through drive through, grab your burger, chow it down at lightening speed and then what? Roll back through drive through? Why? You've already had the Big Mac. These games are not fostering any sort of community or commitment. Your invested in nothing so leaving is easy. The games give players no reason to play beyond the initial 2-5 months. You've already maxed your level, you already have great gear, you really didn't talk to many people so your not leaving behind friends. You can now do in 2-6 months what took the average player in Everquest a year. People in EQ were invested in their characters, the lore, the dungeons, they made tons of friends. There was a reason to continue playing and logging on even when they were not able to play that evening or they were waiting for a raid etc....Christ even players who had retired would log back on just to chat with their guildmates. Find that outside of Everquest or WOW. Good luck.
This, although I think there can be other contributing factors as well.

I remember during EQ 1 pre-beta I was chatting with Raph Koster. We were debating PvP, of course, and he kept insisting that there had to be PvP in an MMO because there was no way to make enough PvE content to keep players entertained more than a couple of weeks. So if we didn't allow PvP, we were going to be in big trouble as players would rapidly run out of things to do, monsters to kill, and quests to complete.

And Raph was right... when it came to UO. Their tools forced you to use a scripting language to do just about anything. This was supposed to a big plus, as designers could create virtually unique content and allow NPCs to have unique behaviors. But it also slowed down implementation to the degree that the game did really need PvP at the end-game (actually the entire game) to provide people with something to do.

EQ's tools were (and are) data driven (although they added a scripting language after I left and they did it well -- you don't have to use it, but you may if you want to do something cooler than the core data driven mechanics allow for). So we put in a lot of content, and then some more. We also made things take a while (downtime) and we put in some repetitive stuff (grinding). And then there was crafting, and (much) later AAs. And so we had plenty of content for the average player. We didn't have enough for the tip of the spear guys, but then you never do.

Where am I going with all of this other than to reminisce? Pantheon is going to have to have a LOT of content. With fewer levels and more content per level we can avoid spending time on dungeons and adventure areas that are never used. We *should* be making adventure areas and a lot of them. And yes, our content creation tools will need to be very efficient. And if we want to minimize (but not eradicate) unnecessary downtime and grinding, then we'll need even more content. This is going to be quite the challenge but I think we can do it and I think it will worth doing too.
 

Graye_sl

shitlord
47
0
This, although I think there can be other contributing factors as well.

I remember during EQ 1 pre-beta I was chatting with Raph Koster. We were debating PvP, of course, and he kept insisting that there had to be PvP in an MMO because there was no way to make enough PvE content to keep players entertained more than a couple of weeks. So if we didn't allow PvP, we were going to be in big trouble as players would rapidly run out of things to do, monsters to kill, and quests to complete.

And Raph was right... when it came to UO. Their tools forced you to use a scripting language to do just about anything. This was supposed to a big plus, as designers could create virtually unique content and allow NPCs to have unique behaviors. But it also slowed down implementation to the degree that the game did really need PvP at the end-game to provide people with something to do.

EQ's tools were (and are) data driven (although they added a scripting language after I left and they did it well -- you don't have to use it, but you may if you want to do something cooler than the core data driven mechanics allow for). So we put in a lot of content, and then some more. We also made things take a while (downtime) and we put in some repetitive stuff (grinding). And then there was crafting, and (much) later AAs. And so we had plenty of content for the average player. We didn't have enough for the tip of the spear guys, but then you never do.

Where am I going with all of this other than to reminisce? Pantheon is going to have to have a LOT of content. With fewer levels and more content per level we can avoid spending time on dungeons and adventure areas that are never used. We *should* be making adventure areas and a lot of them. And yes, our content creation tools will need to be very efficient. And if we want to minimize (but not eradicate) unnecessary downtime and grinding, then we'll need even more content. This is going to be quite the challenge but I think we can do it and I think it will worth doing too.
biggrin.png
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
The distinctions between LFG tools and just flagging yourself LFG in chat and shouting you're looking for a group? The latter, old school way is a little annoying to others. I'm not sure why some of you *really* don't want any UI element that lists people near you who are LFG.

I shall return to the team the next design meeting and argue against dungeon finders.
There is a difference. It's not the LFG tool itself that I'm vehemently opposing, but the philosophy that kind of design brings. If your game is successful enough to merit an expac for example, what is the next step in features you're bringing? Will it be the dungeon finder you're gonna argue against (good news for sure)? Will it be a group creator on top of the LFG tool? If you make one part of the game with these automated features, the inclination is that more and more of the game will become as such.

I don't want to budge an inch into convenience land because once we step foot there, we always find ourselves drowned in it.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
I'm a staunch supporter of older, more "hardcore" design and even I know that a simple LFG window isn't going to betray the community-building qualities of a game. In Everquest, what did you do if you were looking for classes outside of your current zone (after they implemented the LFG tag)? You conducted a / all *class* search and sent people tells. An LFG window isn't much different from that.