chthonic-anemos
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You're not bloody kidding. The MidWest is the same, especially where I'm at. I think this is part of the reason my kids' friends who are atheists are so anxious to talk about it with our family - we don't just dismiss them and tell them they are "evil." Because obviously that's the "Christian" thing to do.
We've all done a fine job of fucking up religion.
iannis
Musty Nester
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Yeah. It's a thing that atheists won't agree with. It's a core disagreement.
If you are personally religious there is GOOD that you draw from that. Practical, realistic good in your own life. Why -wouldn't- you want to share that with your kids? That's something that everyone sane can agree with.
I don't personally believe in indoctrinating children with dogmatic baggage. That might well be religion but it ain't my religion. It is a tool that I would hope they never come to need while at the same time realizing that they will. A little bit of moral and spiritual education, guidance, involving core religious principles is hardly the same as telling them to keep their whore mouth shut when it comes to Father Kurtz.
But if you do not draw that core good from it... why would you burden your children with it?
If you are personally religious there is GOOD that you draw from that. Practical, realistic good in your own life. Why -wouldn't- you want to share that with your kids? That's something that everyone sane can agree with.
I don't personally believe in indoctrinating children with dogmatic baggage. That might well be religion but it ain't my religion. It is a tool that I would hope they never come to need while at the same time realizing that they will. A little bit of moral and spiritual education, guidance, involving core religious principles is hardly the same as telling them to keep their whore mouth shut when it comes to Father Kurtz.
But if you do not draw that core good from it... why would you burden your children with it?
This is one thing that i've always been disquieted with about evangelicals of any nature. Theist or Atheist. I can't help but feeling that these men think they're dragging you out of Plato's Cave, when in fact all they're doing is inviting you to come sit in a different corner of it. And everyone seems to think that their corner is closer to the exit... but everyone's still in the fuckin dark. I dunno. You just tell your kids that no one can put God in a box. If it can be boxed, that is not God. But you can make some very interesting and useful and good boxes just trying to do the impossible... its how we grow.
iannis
Musty Nester
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That is your responsibility as a parent, after all. As much as feeding their face and washing their butt and keeping the neighborhood cats from stealing their breath.
And it is also the responsibility of the Church to provide that to families. Which... we've all done a fine job of fucking up religion.
And it is also the responsibility of the Church to provide that to families. Which... we've all done a fine job of fucking up religion.
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Cad
scientia potentia est
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I guess I'm thinking of it as, with you being a parent, your kid will look to you for the answers. Not just "here's what I think", but what you think = the world. You are the smartest person they know. Don't you owe it to them to tell them the unvarnished truth?
How do you purport to be teaching your kid critical thinking, logic and reason and then turn around and tell them fairy tales are real? I guess I would feel like I'm failing my kid as a parent if I have to do the usual mumbo jumbo about god works in mysterious ways when he asks good questions.
How do you purport to be teaching your kid critical thinking, logic and reason and then turn around and tell them fairy tales are real? I guess I would feel like I'm failing my kid as a parent if I have to do the usual mumbo jumbo about god works in mysterious ways when he asks good questions.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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Would religion survive if it was not forced upon children?
Your children, your choice. I was raised Lutheran/Protestant. The worst that happens with most Christians in the US is a crisis of faith later on. I do not feel hostility towards anyone in particular because of it, however I am somewhat angry regarding a lot of things that went on in Sunday school, etc. (not in parents direct control) in retrospect. That is indoctrination, plain and simple. You drop your kids off in a class to have hyperchristianlady countermand the science lesson from 2nd grade on Friday. It was a betrayal of trust for their agenda.
In some ways I think being raised in a religious house makes you a wiser person when you are able to throw away the shackles of your family and community for truth and logic. Kolinahr up in here.
No
Your children, your choice. I was raised Lutheran/Protestant. The worst that happens with most Christians in the US is a crisis of faith later on. I do not feel hostility towards anyone in particular because of it, however I am somewhat angry regarding a lot of things that went on in Sunday school, etc. (not in parents direct control) in retrospect. That is indoctrination, plain and simple. You drop your kids off in a class to have hyperchristianlady countermand the science lesson from 2nd grade on Friday. It was a betrayal of trust for their agenda.
In some ways I think being raised in a religious house makes you a wiser person when you are able to throw away the shackles of your family and community for truth and logic. Kolinahr up in here.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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I don't know is actually the perfect answer. "I don't know, I haven't seen any evidence of it. What do you think?"
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Holy shit, you're incapable of seeing anything but your own perspective.
When my kids ask me about doubts, about faith, about any of that, I tell them I can't give them concrete answers. They have to find the answers themselves. I can show them what Ibelieve, and how that impacts how I live. I can encourage them to question, and they do. I can have those conversations with them. You make it sound like I'm pounding them if they questionmyfaith, and I'm brainwashing them because they must believe what I do.
It's not black and white. It's not 1. raise your kids in a fundie Christian household and shun them if they don't comply in every way. Or 2. Have no religion at all and tell your kids it's all bullshit.
There are just a few shades between that, and intelligent people are able to negotiate those waters pretty well. I'm sorry a priest or pastor or whatever touched you in the bad spot, or whatever happened to make you think this way, but open your mind. I certainly hope you are at least enjoying the irony that your lack of religion should dictate what others teach their children about religion.
iannis
Musty Nester
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Kid logic is different. The faith of a child is a very different kind of faith. Hodj is gonna go nuts about how it's "suspend all reason and shut the hell up". And I suppose that is one interpretation. But it's not the only one.
I do share that concern though. It's why I'm leery of being too dogmatic about it, especially regarding children. But then again... I'm childless and the theory of what I would do presented with the situation is different than whatever the reality would be.
I wouldn't be dragging my kids to church. But I would be putting age-appropriate books on the lower shelves of the bookshelf and I would be dragging them out on monthly saturday afternoon excursions with me as soon as they were old enough to be useful. And I'd probably spend saturday evening smacking them for fucking off all day instead of working. YOU TOO GOOD TO SWING A HAMMER, BOY?!?! TOO GOOD TO HELP SOMEBODY? GONNA BEAT THAT DEVIL OUTTA YOU!
But again, I'm not a parent. So what the fuck do I know really.
I do share that concern though. It's why I'm leery of being too dogmatic about it, especially regarding children. But then again... I'm childless and the theory of what I would do presented with the situation is different than whatever the reality would be.
I wouldn't be dragging my kids to church. But I would be putting age-appropriate books on the lower shelves of the bookshelf and I would be dragging them out on monthly saturday afternoon excursions with me as soon as they were old enough to be useful. And I'd probably spend saturday evening smacking them for fucking off all day instead of working. YOU TOO GOOD TO SWING A HAMMER, BOY?!?! TOO GOOD TO HELP SOMEBODY? GONNA BEAT THAT DEVIL OUTTA YOU!
But again, I'm not a parent. So what the fuck do I know really.
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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I'm relistening to The History of Rome, you had a very long stretch where the empire became less and less religious until it was just more or less a formality. Superstitions, like black cats and friday the 13th.And yet, generations went by and they became devout christians, muslims, zoroastrans, etc. Without a doubt, religion would live on. No matter what wedo.
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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I don't know, I went to church as a kid and I hated all the god stuff, but everything else was awesome. Church camp, awesome. Sunday school,awesome. Youth groups, awesome. If it wasn't for all the religion, I'd go to church every week.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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Dirk, Cad's primary point is that children cannot cogitate philosophy and such, as in they are physiologically unable to comprehend abstract concepts until later in development, usually way after they are 'exposed' to a religion. Hence why it is indoctrination.
Having lived through it, I cannot disagree. I do not think it is harmful in most cases for Christianity, assuming the correct support from the parents. It can certainly be a benefit, I do think many of my moral values and ethical underpinnings were formed during that time frame. However, you can replace that with irreligious lessons as a good parent as well so it isn't a unique source of world view.
Having lived through it, I cannot disagree. I do not think it is harmful in most cases for Christianity, assuming the correct support from the parents. It can certainly be a benefit, I do think many of my moral values and ethical underpinnings were formed during that time frame. However, you can replace that with irreligious lessons as a good parent as well so it isn't a unique source of world view.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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Not to belabor the point in here but the information age is a whole different beast than Rome.
chaos
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Yeah it's even worse. You have fully educated, Western people flying off to be in ISIS. I don't know,I suppose things like that always happened. We certainly think we're beyond shit like that but we aren't. But that is the most extreme, more realistically normal boring religion still isn't going anywhere.
iannis
Musty Nester
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You know, I really think it would. I think the churches themselves would die, the nation/globe spanning organizations. But this is something that scientology teaches us, one thing that it's actually good for -- no one was born into that religion. And if you took all of the child labor out of it you would not cripple it, there would still be converts lining up to take the classes and pay the tithe.
I think we'd just return to regional cults is all. It's our social nature. There will be good men, there will be bad men, there will be powerful men. The less powerful will congregate around them -- and it doesn't even take an entire human lifespan to begin the process of deification. They may be shorter lived without child converts, but they wouldn't stop being a thing.
You work in an industry built on greed and lies that assumes the worst in everyone. Your profession helps people ruin others and splits up families. Your peers can be the most base creatures motivated by nothing except the mighty dollar.
You should quit your job now and only work again when your children are 18 so you don't indoctrinate them into that culture of immorality.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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This is small minded tripe and you should be ashamed. Since you didn't make any actual points I'll just assume this is what religious indoctrination does to you, deprives you of your critical thinking skills and common sense.