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Captain Suave

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lurkingdirk said:
I know these folks never spanked their son, have been seriously involved in his life, brought him to practices, took him to lessons, did everything right as far as anyone could tell. I know anything's possible, but I've known this couple for 25 years and they are amazing. They were also incredibly good and gracious with my own children, watching them often when my wife and I took a weekend away.

So, FOH parents, thoughts on this?
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Did they provide consistent, clear behavioral boundaries with appropriate consequences starting at a very young age? I see loads of parents who superficially do all the right things (modeling behavior, providing opportunities, etc.) but also completely and utterly failed to persistently train their kids to stop being shits at age 3-6, when that message actually has transformative power. Then they're surprised when at the pre-teen/teen stage the kids end up still being shits with more adult behaviors. For this specific case, there's just no way that kind of disrespect appears out of the ether, or escalates to that stage without there having been a long ramp-up where the parental response was insufficient.

What to do about it once you're there? I think laying hands on the kid might stop the behavior in the short term, but I suspect it wouldn't change what's in his head or do much for the relationship with the parents. Partially removing the support that he takes for granted is more likely to shock his system into reevaluation, IMO. Act like you're in charge of your own life with no obligation to anyone else, get treated that way.
 
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lurkingdirk

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Captain Suave said:
Did they provide consistent, clear behavioral boundaries with appropriate consequences starting at a very young age? I see loads of parents who superficially do all the right things (modeling behavior, providing opportunities, etc.) but also completely and utterly failed to persistently train their kids to stop being shits at age 3-6, when that message actually has transformative power. Then they're surprised when at the pre-teen/teen stage the kids end up still being shits with more adult behaviors. For this specific case, there's just no way that kind of disrespect appears out of the ether, or escalates to that stage without there having been a long ramp-up where the parental response was insufficient.

What to do about it once you're there? I think laying hands on the kid might stop the behavior in the short term, but I suspect it wouldn't change what's in his head or do much for the relationship with the parents. Partially removing the support that he takes for granted is more likely to shock his system into reevaluation, IMO. Act like you're in charge of your own life with no obligation to anyone else, get treated that way.
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Yes, they did provide those boundaries with appropriate consequences starting at birth.
 
sleevedraw

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Sounds to me like the kid needs the R. Lee Ermey treatment - i.e. he shapes up, or his ass gets kicked out of the house and into boot camp. Maybe if an authority figure shows him the level of disrespect he's showing his parents, he'll learn something.

But that's just idle speculation (not a parent other than hosting an exchange student who's been a good kid overall).
 
Captain Suave

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lurkingdirk said:
Yes, they did provide those boundaries with appropriate consequences starting at birth.
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Did they, though, really? Honest question. To my mind, "appropriate consequences" are synonymous with "consequences which produce the desired result."

Judging from your account, the kid a) deemed it appropriate to say that shit to his mom in public and b) seemed surprised at and cowed by the dad's response. That would indicate to me that this is at least the first time in recent memory he received the message of "Oh shit, I have fucked up."
 
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lurkingdirk

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Captain Suave said:
Did they, though, really? Honest question. To my mind, "appropriate consequences" are synonymous with "consequences which produce the desired result."

Judging from your account, the kid a) deemed it appropriate to say that shit to his mom in public and b) seemed surprised at and cowed by the dad's response. That would indicate to me that this is at least the first time in recent memory he received the message of "Oh shit, I have fucked up."
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I fully appreciate what you're saying. The kid has known he has fucked up before. Like I said, lost his car, his phone, his computer, his game system, can't go out anywhere, and they don't trust him to be home alone. He's lost every privilege known to human kind. They have been seriously involved. This is the first time, I think, they're treating him like an adult with adult consequences. Perhaps that's the difference. I think the dad just got to the point where he's realizing his son might be a psychopath, and he's moving to the next level. I dunno. I don't know what I would have done differently with this kid, to be honest. His mother is a nurse, his father an electrician. I don't know what's up with this kid.
 
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Oblio

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A few weeks ago my younger son was playing basketball with my wife and knocked her to the ground. For reference, my wife is maybe ~125 lbs and my son is 200 lbs (he is 14). I was in the house when it happened and had no idea they were playing basketball. My son came in the house in tears and said "Dad, I hit Mom!" I said "WHAT!"

He immediately realized his choice of words sent the wrong message. He explained they were playing basketball and what happened. While explaining he got even more emotional and I gave him a hug. That is when my wife walked in and said it was no big deal. She was laughing about it. She was surprised how emotional he was over it. It made me feel good that he was that upset over it.

My Wife is a former D1 Athlete, but I think that was a reality check for her that her boys are growing up and she isn't a spring chicken anymore. Wish I had the Hoop Cam on, would to see her trying to shuffle over to stop his drive. My son now refuses to engage in any sports with Mom because he doesn't want to hurt her.
 
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lurkingdirk

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Oblio said:
A few weeks ago my younger son was playing basketball with my wife and knocked her to the ground. For reference, my wife is maybe ~125 lbs and my son is 200 lbs (he is 14). I was in the house when it happened and had no idea they were playing basketball. My son came in the house in tears and said "Dad, I hit Mom!" I said "WHAT!"

He immediately realized his choice of words sent the wrong message. He explained they were playing basketball and what happened. While explaining he got even more emotional and I gave him a hug. That is when my wife walked in and said it was no big deal. She was laughing about it. She was surprised how emotional he was over it. It made me feel good that he was that upset over it.

My Wife is a former D1 Athlete, but I think that was a reality check for her that her boys are growing up and she isn't a spring chicken anymore. Wish I had the Hoop Cam on, would to see her trying to shuffle over to stop his drive. My son now refuses to engage in any sports with Mom because he doesn't want to hurt her.
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So relatable. You still think you, as a parent, can outplay your kids, doesn't matter how old. It's a seriously humbling experience when they prove that not true. My wife, 2 sons, and I recently played in a hockey tournament for a charity. My wife and I were on one team, my 2 sons on another. It was a 3 on 3 tournament, so just one extra person on each team. My youngest absolutely blasted my wife, it was an accident, but he took her into the boards. He's not heavy, probably only has 25 pounds on her, but she went down like crazy. The game totally stopped, my youngest got on the ice and was apologizing and being really upset and worried that he hurt his mother. Once he got right next to her on the ice he realized that she was shaking with laughter. That's when my son stood up, faced off to me, we both dropped the gloves, came at each other, and then danced a waltz. Seriously. It was the highlight of the tournament for everyone.

And then my son completely beat me with stick handling, left me looking foolish, and scored, eliminating us from the tournament. Little shit.
 
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Gavinmad

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lurkingdirk said:
Yes, they did provide those boundaries with appropriate consequences starting at birth.
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Really doesn't seem like they did. I had some serious behavioral problems as a kid and still I can't even imagine myself saying that to my mother in private, let alone in public.

Also 'there was not an expressed threat of physical retaliation'? In what universe is "I will deal with you the same way I would deal with any other man who said that" anything other than a clear and unambiguous threat of violence?
 
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Noodleface

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Oblio said:
A few weeks ago my younger son was playing basketball with my wife and knocked her to the ground. For reference, my wife is maybe ~125 lbs and my son is 200 lbs (he is 14). I was in the house when it happened and had no idea they were playing basketball. My son came in the house in tears and said "Dad, I hit Mom!" I said "WHAT!"

He immediately realized his choice of words sent the wrong message. He explained they were playing basketball and what happened. While explaining he got even more emotional and I gave him a hug. That is when my wife walked in and said it was no big deal. She was laughing about it. She was surprised how emotional he was over it. It made me feel good that he was that upset over it.

My Wife is a former D1 Athlete, but I think that was a reality check for her that her boys are growing up and she isn't a spring chicken anymore. Wish I had the Hoop Cam on, would to see her trying to shuffle over to stop his drive. My son now refuses to engage in any sports with Mom because he doesn't want to hurt her.
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My wife is 5'0", 100 lbs and my 7 year old is almost as big as her.

She works with special needs kids at the school and I'm terrified one might hurt her one day, and not even out of anger but just because of the issues they have.
 
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Cutlery

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Gavinmad said:
Really doesn't seem like they did. I had some serious behavioral problems as a kid and still I can't even imagine myself saying that to my mother in private, let alone in public.

Also 'there was not an expressed threat of physical retaliation'? In what universe is "I will deal with you the same way I would deal with any other man who said that" anything other than a clear and unambiguous threat of violence?
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Violence solves all problems. Always has. The reason society is the way it is is because we have forgotten this fact.

Schoolyard fights, boys will be boys, all that shit. In order for boys to become men, they need to understand violence and it's appropriate use - both by them and towards them.

I am not sure there is another way to make men.
 
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