Pillars of Eternity, Obsidian's new CRPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate

All this NWN2 nostalgia lead me to discover there's a Baldur's Gate I mod available. Going to load that up and see how much I enjoy that story in 3D.

BTW, I've never played either BG I or II (sacrilege !!) but now that the BG II Enhanced Edition has been massively patched (1.3), I'm seriously thinking of giving it a crack at long last.

Question to the veterans that have experience with these older classics as well:

If you were able to "ignore" the 15 year gap for a moment, how does BG II hold up against the new game PoE: with regard to world building/story, depth of characters/companions, and compelling/addictive gameplay? Given that they are both Isometric games, I'm sure I would be able to ignore the older engine limitations to some extent.

I've pretty much read this entire thread, and would be very interested to hear thoughts on what BG II or PoE does clearly better, or worse, or even what they do equally well.

My real question... Is itreallystill worth playing BG II in 2015, or is the modern tribute/alternative good enough to just leave all that in the past?

Yes, it's worth it. I'm currently doing a run through BG1-2 now.

While this game has been fun to play, it is not getting off "7" for me. By "7" i mean 1-10. Maybe because comparing this game to any of the D&D games it tough cause the D&D systems are so superior.

Little things missing like:

camping should be dangerous

Weapon repair - some hate it but it made mobs like oozes interesting.

D&D iconic monsters - beholders, Gelatanous cubes, Oozes, Undead, Mind Flayers, Dragons ( way better in D&D ).. PoE has no similar tough to deal with and exciting to see mobs. The Diseased Ooze was nasty and those giant beetles but that was kinda it, The Drake in Oda Nua level 5 was tough when i did it, but later encountered a bigger dragon thing in area east and south of Defiance Bay and was joke encounter.

Damage types again - In D&D if you use the wrong damage type on mobs you can die pretty easy where as here, it just took longer to kill it.

D&D's way of slapping you in the face in game complexity, as you level there are certain periods that the game just gets harder as new mechanics are introduced ( some by mobs spells- see instakills and behavior - see beholder) Mind control spells are nasty ( here too ) and elemental damage types ( never worried here just healed through it ).+

Enchanting mechanism - while interesting it makes me feel like every weapon is the same. even unique named weapons are for the most part not that interesting.

Named items - in Baldurs 1/2 and nwn 1/2 i can say for sure that the unique weapons and things you find totally outclass the cookie cutter items in PoE

Damage typing simplification - having weapons do 2 types of damage simplifies gearing and makes items less interesting and unique

Skill system - the more i play it the more i realize decoupling of ability score from skills is a mistake and the removal of things like swimming, jumping, search, spot, tumble, bluff etc really limits some cool features of the game. Its like, mechanics and stealth are only useful things to put points in. I also HATE the fact that my ability scores ( str, con, int, wis, dex ) do not affect skills ( like dex should help you disarm traps ).

Classes - +1 for Cipher, -2 for useless ranger, Wizzy is ok but D&D way better, fighter is ok, Druid is fun, no multiclassing is lame.

Enemies - It all just started to be more enemies = more difficulty. Fact is in D&D its the combinations of different enemies that pose a challenge, i never felt that here.

Companion system and alignment - D&D alignment is something that is missing. Its ok to not have a "starting alignment" but i never felt at risk of losing a companion because I was engaging in douche-baggery. I purposely played evil and whacked ppl everywhere and no one in my party cared. That was one thing that made baldurs1/2 shine for me.

Story is not very interesting to me. Even playing baldurs gate after all these years i like that story better. For some reason i just don't dig the whole souls thing at all.

Also while i think the game looked decent, compared to a game like Divinity Orignal sin, its just bleh. it doesn't look 15 years better than baldurs, hell it looks like 1 year. nwn2 graphics engine is far superior but a resource hog.

Not trying to be overly negative but if some of the above was modified this game for me could get to baldurs gate1/2 and nwn2 levels. The game system and story could use work in my mind.

Fun experience and look forward to expansion(s).

Argarth_sl said:

All this NWN2 nostalgia lead me to discover there's a Baldur's Gate I mod available. Going to load that up and see how much I enjoy that story in 3D.

BTW, I've never played either BG I or II (sacrilege !!) but now that the BG II Enhanced Edition has been massively patched (1.3), I'm seriously thinking of giving it a crack at long last.

Question to the veterans that have experience with these older classics as well:

If you were able to "ignore" the 15 year gap for a moment, how does BG II hold up against the new game PoE: with regard to world building/story, depth of characters/companions, and compelling/addictive gameplay? Given that they are both Isometric games, I'm sure I would be able to ignore the older engine limitations to some extent.

I've pretty much read this entire thread, and would be very interested to hear thoughts on what BG II or PoE does clearly better, or worse, or even what they do equally well.

My real question... Is itreallystill worth playing BG II in 2015, or is the modern tribute/alternative good enough to just leave all that in the past?

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I am playing both at the same time ( BG2 and PoE ). Baldurs gate 2 destroys PoE in all of your categories for me. I would also add that depth of the system is way better in BG as well. D&D really peaks in the level range of Baldur's gate 2. You face iconic monsters that can be tough to deal with and classes really flush out.

Graphics wise, i play on a projector mostly and PoE doesn't look all that much better than baldurs gate 2 did imo.

Exept that you should compare to bg1, not high level, expansion, bg2. And I tried but couldn't rerun it for more than 5 mn.
There are some shortcomings for sure, but not bad for a game made with, I suppose, not a lot of money, and without access to D&D rules. I hope they can do a great PoE2.

shabushabu_sl said:

While this game has been fun to play, it is not getting off "7" for me. By "7" i mean 1-10. Maybe because comparing this game to any of the D&D games it tough cause the D&D systems are so superior.

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Agree with this and most of your points. Hate most of the systems in PoE. Took a break when characters were lvl 5 and haven't bothered playing it since.

It's hard to top BG2. It was (some of the buggy scripting aside... like jahira's retard romance that _always_ hung) very nearly perfect. It wasn't that hard to top BG1.

There were also a lot of mechanics cheese in BG2 that's maybe easy to overlook. Like the way traps worked. Dumb meta shit like you could start as a sorc, dismiss everyone from your party, scribe 30 scrolls, level up to whatever it came out to be... just goofy shit. poe does a decent job of curtailing some of that goofy meta shit... but there is a significant part of the fanbase that genuinely enjoyed that cheesy meta shit... so that's kind of a wash.

And lets be honest. BG1 really wasn't all that memorable.

bg2 > poe > bg1. I really didn't expect poe to be BETTER than Bg2 though, just a good solid isometric. I don't think you're gonna get better than bg2. Dare I say it, I think BG2 was even better than Planescape if you're talking about which is the better game. You could say Planescape had the better storyline and I'd agree with that.

There are problems with Eternity, but it's solid enough.

I disagree that BG1 wasn't memorable. Yeah, BG2 improved on it in almost every way (which is what sequels are for), but it was a solid RPG in and of itself, especially once the expansion came out. It had a brilliant atmosphere with a really vibrant world, tons of environments to explore, a plot which while not mindbendingly original, was well implemented and solidly engaging as you slowly unravel the riddle of what the hell is going on in both your own life and the Sword Coast as a whole (and why they're connected), some really cool quest lines and dungeons (Durlag's Tower alone is worth the price of entry). There's a reason it got rave reviews and basically resurrected the genre when it came out.

The only things I look at and say "this could have been done better," is that they went for quantity over quality with party members (other than getting shitty if your reputation strayed too far out of their alignment, the original party members don't have any real interactions with you once they join the party, although their voice acting and portraits still kept most of them fairly memorable, "Brave, brave Sir Garrick..."), the game starts a bit slow because you start out at level 1, so it's mostly a whole lot of gibberlings/skeletons/kobolds with the occasional ogre or pack of gnolls for the first few hours, and that because you start at level 1 and end at 9/10ish, you never really get to face down some of the really cool monsters - I was disappointed when I finished the game for the first time and there wasn't a single dragon.

But all of that is stuff they make up in spades in the sequel, so for someone who's never played either, I'd definitely suggest a playthrough starting with BG1. BG2 would be a much, much less satisfying experience without all the background and the familiarity with the game and the setting/characters. It's a very solid game in it's own right, and was an amazing one when it came out. It's just easy to forget that because it was outshined by it's genre defining sequel. But you're jumping in half way through if you skip to BG2.

The only thing to worry about with BG1 is whether they've patched the hell out of the enhanced edition. The new content was horrifically buggy when they released it (I couldn't even access the side quests for 2 of the new party members, and the third I couldn't finish), which might give a bad impression to someone who doesn't know the difference. But the inclusion of the new classes and resolutions and so forth is nice (although the Black Pits side-campaign sucked - they really should have spent that time adding more content to BG and making the new content bug free, instead of getting caught up in their own little pet side project which has nothing to do with BG at all).

So yeah, google that. But definitely don't skip BG1. That'd be like skipping A New Hope because The Empire Strikes Back is better.

BG1 was great, especially with ToSC which doesn't get enough credit, it was a really good expansion. BG2 was just in another class of game that we rarely if ever have seen before. The content of BG2 is just so overwhelmingly awesome.

I agree that this game should be compared to BG1, or even a real time version of ToEE, before it is compared to BG2. I like PoE but it doesn't hold a candle to BG2 in story telling or content, or even gameplay. Maybe thematically PoE is a deeper game but the story is kind of just shitty Avellone philosophical musings, it just lacks character in my opinion.

Still PoE is really good. I'm waiting on some patches to finish up playing it though

Yeah. I wouldn't call BG1 a bad game, it wasn't by any metric. It's the problem of context. When you look at Black Isle / Obsidian and what they've released BG1 is fairly low on the "holy shitsnacks" list.

A low ranked Obsidian Game is still better than 90% of the bullshit out there. Foiled by their own success!

It's like I personally think Firebird is kinda lame. But it's still motherfuckin' Stravinsky, and you better respect yo.

or even a real time version of ToEE

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Oh man, I really wanted to like that game, but the combat was slow and awful, the UI was awful, the environments were mostly but the character models were awful (just grey blobs in cloaks), there was no story at all, barely any quests, it was just one twenty minute fight with a pack of generic mobs after another. Not quite as bad as Pools of Radiance, but close. Getting interrupted while resting is one thing when you can blow through a pack of bandits or whatever in a minute or two, but when every single character's turn takes at least 30 seconds, it's a fucking nightmare. I didn't get down past the first level of the temple in my first playthrough, and I was about half way through the second when I decided to give it another chance only to decide I was sick of gameplay that was about as fun as a trip to the dentist.

(some of the buggy scripting aside... like jahira's retard romance that _always_ hung)

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Am I the only one who found the Jaheira romance weird, creepy and borderline incestuous? I mean you meet this woman who's what, twice your age, when she's an old friend of your adopted father, during which time Gorion has been retired from adventuring, so to be close and trustworthy friends he must have been adventuring with them a while before he retired (so probably more than twice your age, as you start BG1 18 - 21ish), you play through the entirety of BG1 with her husband in the party and her giving off a "team mum" vibe, then you start BG2, Irenicus has already killed her husband, you literally watch her discover his mutilated corpse, and then... she almost immediately starts hitting on the adopted child of her old adventuring buddy who's less than half her age? What the shit?

The others aren't much better. There's Aerie, clingy elf chick who won't stop whining about losing her wings and playing serious mind games with you, Viconia fucked up evil elf chick who blows you off if you're too nice, but then turns to neutral if you act evil (lady make up your mind), oh and randomly tells you about the time she was imprisoned and raped repeatedly.

That's not even touching on whats his face the douchebag who was the only romance option for female PC's. I don't know what his deal is because he was so fucking annoying I never accepted him into my party. Literally never done his sidequest in probably at least 10 playthroughs, but I can only imagine how fucked up and weirdthatromance sub-plot must be.

At least it was made back before this shit went out of control. These day's you'd have to fend off Jan Janssen's approaches or end up in a seriously weird cutscene of a bi-sexual threesome with the gnome illusionist who has a creepily specific turnip obsession and Viconia's definite BDSM vibe. Hell, these days Viconia would have been kicked out of the Underdark because the Drow are transphobic or something.

I always kinda wondered what weirdo wanted to fuck Jahira anyway.

Humorless, unshaven, borderline psychotic and probably too hung up on herself to even give blowjobs. And you know that bitch was vegan... so no cheese either. It's like a hell of your own choosing.

Haha no shit. It is kinda funny watching her fight over the PC with Aerie though. Put all 3 in the party if you want a real laugh.

Wow chaps, thank you allsomuch for the detailed breakdown around PoE vs BG. One of the main reasons I always check these boards for game advice... If you ask serious questions, you're very likely to get some seriously well thought out answers. =)

@ Azrayne
Regarding playing BG1 first, I do see your point, especially since all of it will be completely new to me. Literally just finished re-installing NWN2, and with a truckload of new Texture, Model and UI mods, and some help from Reshade/Sweetfx it looks really really good. In fact I can hardly believe justhowdamn good it looks. Going to play the BG Reloaded mod first (includes TotSC) before I even buy the BG2 EE. (apparently the mod is quite faithful to the original quests and dialogue) to get my head around the original storyline.

Thanks for the advice, it's downloading now, can't wait!

Jaheria is an elf. Elves have a huuuge ability to compartmentalize shit. Also your age is much higher as one of the long lived subraces....but that also breaks the narrative.

Half-elf. 185years max.
their 60 would be humans 40.

But yeah, all around partnerships, etc in relation to long lives is one of those Roleplaying elements that rarely gets touched on.

I touched on this this... here? or reddit?
Life and death in these games.. its weird. Like the dead people tree. various youtubers talking about it being shocking. Eh. not really? particularly in context of the world. Thats really small potatoes. The all around reaction to death in general.
Like, these people live in a world where an afterlife is a known fact. Resurrection is a known fact. Reincarnation is a known fact. etc.
This would radically change how you perceive death. Death would just be a progress, or transition. Like puberty. Not final or horrific at all.
Bodies are KNOWN to just hold souls. Between undead, etc.

So, that dead body up in the tree, would be known to just be an empty vessel.

This then also leads to the real issue of fucking up souls themselves. that would be the real horror. Breaking souls in this world is the real comparison to our real world death.

So you shouldn't really feel bad about killing anyone in DnD or here. unless they are faithless, pre-removal of the wall, in dnd. Its not an evil act at all.

We can then look at ages in a similar way. if you have a 300 yr old character, who still looks 30.. with elve's, etc.. like human concepts of age is meaningless. even more when you consider the psuedo-fuedal nature, and how in reality, 14 was an "adult" in ancient societies..

Caliane_sl said:

Half-elf. 185years max.
their 60 would be humans 40.

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Oh excuse me for about 200 years. A druid nature half elf would have zero idea about compartmentalization.

Ill just roll a 230 year old dwarf and things will be fine.

radditsu_sl said:

Oh excuse me for about 200 years. A druid nature half elf would have zero idea about compartmentalization.

Ill just roll a 230 year old dwarf and things will be fine.

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Also a true neutral druid.
Clearly would prioritize getting laid, over human social norms.

The only thing i like about the enhanced versions is the UI and the specific subclasses. But bgtutu did that years ago.

The new writing was awful. It was fanfiction