RIP Araysar

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So while the West consolidates significant geopolitical and financial power gains, and Chinese balls are the size of boiled peanuts, and India is in India land, Russia is going to lose arms market share, and with it, the only real alliance that matters -- a defense / maintenance contract.

So what non-western defense source is now attractive? You would have to say China benefits. These are mostly products for pointless states, but that was Russia's market to lose.

Still always curious about what bugs people about the Western liberal democratic model, and more to the point, what possible alternative is there that isn't a form of authoritarianism.
 
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TheBeagle

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So while the West consolidates significant geopolitical and financial power gains, and Chinese balls are the size of boiled peanuts, and India is in India land, Russia is going to lose arms market share, and with it, the only real alliance that matters -- a defense / maintenance contract.

So what non-western defense source is now attractive? You would have to say China benefits. These are mostly products for pointless states, but that was Russia's market to lose.

Still always curious about what bugs people about the Western liberal democratic model, and more to the point, what possible alternative is there that isn't a form of authoritarianism.
You seriously think the West is not engaging in authoritarianism? The West's recent tyranny on it's own citizens in the form of lockdowns, forced vaccination, rampant censorship, and out of control immigration is EXACTLY the reason why so many Westerners are rooting against their own governments involvements in Ukraine.
 
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You seriously think the West is not engaging in authoritarianism? The West's recent tyranny on it's own citizens in the form of lockdowns, forced vaccination, rampant censorship, and out of control immigration is EXACTLY the reason why so many Westerners are rooting against their own governments involvements in Ukraine.
(First of all let's use my starting point for now: Covid was real.)

I would make two different categories here. Authoritarianism removes 1) police and court redress and 2) regular elections. Then it issues edicts.We however allow both, which are structural defenses in how we are set up, that can be used to slow down an overweening state, which can often get a bit too edict-y. That's been the recipe for ~250 years. Police, Courts and Elections > the central, edict-giving state.

Burden of proof is in your court re: despite a ~250 year decent run, now our system, which is built to thwart authoritarianism, is failing. How? Where? And significant enough to represent an overthrowing of 250 years of decent success?

Or: do you dispute the we have actually evaded authoritarianism for 250 years? Some Lost Cause folks think we've been a tyranny since the 1850's.
 
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Loser Araysar

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Still always curious about what bugs people about the Western liberal democratic model, and more to the point, what possible alternative is there that isn't a form of authoritarianism.

You have kids?
 
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Loser Araysar

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Look, are we going to talk about what generational change looks like, or argue about if it should exist?

Do you think any parent with sense fears today's world? That is a very poor strategy even if you buy the premise.

Technology and technological advance largely determines human evolution. There is no human "soul." These is simply an organism, evolving over time, and what is distinct about human evolution is, tools are constantly altering the conditions and definitions of what "human beings" even are.

Abortion is an issue b/c it is technologically ez.
Hard drugs are an issue b/c they are technologically ez.
Gender fluidity is an issue b/c we can tune your hormones to taste now.
Global economics is an issue b/c it is ...
Etc.

It is always about technology. Who we are is always the sum of our technological potential, nothing more.

So we have your view: Be afraid! Make it stop! Fight back! Or at least, say no and be different.

That is identical to what Amish people have been saying for 150 years.

If the problem is, our tools give us exponentially more power over "what we are" than a century ago, the solution is not to imagine a world where somehow knowledge disappears and technology is not invented.

The solution is to teach your kid to captain the damn ship, whatever wreck techno-human evolution might bring down the road.

You are raising Amish kids you and do not even know it. Meanwhile, some kids are being taught to operate not wilt.

O Araysar! Thou wiltiest of wilting flowers!
How long shall your cries for pity and reconsideration of our future go unanswered?


Just wait till they invent the porta-uterus. Easily transfer a fertilzed egg into the battery powered, knapsack-sized porta-uterus, and 9 months later it's done! If you can get access to a fertilized egg, and are planing a long hike, you can still carry a pregnancy and gender will finally decouple from reproduction in the human mind. Proly around 2100.

Or do you think Jeebus is gonna come and put a stop to it?

There are so many premises of "But aren't you worried?" in your attitude, that you never actually put on the table. You thrive in an environment where people share your beliefs and so everyone just assumes the same things.

You are Amish, sir. Old order Amish.
 
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Erronius

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(First of all let's use my starting point for now: Covid was real.)

I would make two different categories here. Authoritarianism removes 1) police and court redress and 2) regular elections. Then it issues edicts.We however allow both, which are structural defenses in how we are set up, that can be used to slow down an overweening state, which can often get a bit too edict-y. That's been the recipe for ~250 years. Police, Courts and Elections > the central, edict-giving state.

Burden of proof is in your court re: despite a ~250 year decent run, now our system, which is built to thwart authoritarianism, is failing. How? Where? And significant enough to represent an overthrowing of 250 years of decent success?

Or: do you dispute the we have actually evaded authoritarianism for 250 years? Some Lost Cause folks think we've been a tyranny since the 1850's.

Liberal Authoritarianism.

It's not the traditional form of authoritarianism that you're focusing on.

They can completely bypass the need to remove "1) police and court redress and 2) regular elections" by simply appealing to authority and then using said authority to hammer every dissenter as if they were a wayward nail.

The gov't focuses on crafting narratives and manipulating public opinion first, such that elections no longer offer a true alternative choice, and 'police and court redress' becomes meaningless when the conditions for these actions are then predicated on the Liberal positions said to be moral and ethical.

The entire unscrupulous invasion of Iraq, for example, was largely based on the premise of "Saddam Bad", including the gross manipulation of the facts of the matter. An invasion built on audacious lies, which then led us down a path where any disobedience or dissent was marginalized without even needing to 'issue any edicts' to then be enacted by the levers given to our gov't to do so.

The end result is largely the same, while being able to dodge the 'traits' of Authoritarianism that you trundled out.

In a domestic sense, just look at Jan6th and the BLM protests and riots that preceded it. As long as you can at least argue the most tenuous connection to some sort of Liberal 'feels-driven' justification, you'll largely be protected under the umbrella of Liberal Democracy. But stray away from that and you'll quickly be maligned as the 'enemy' and the entire weight of our System will fall on your head. Free Speech is only Free so long as you're mindful of the current Groupthink.

So the momentum of our nation, so to speak, is often to simply be 'obedient' to the moral paradigm we're told is right and just and proper. Else we run counter to that, and then the inevitable train of actions will begin, without any need for the traditional centralized authoritarian regime you're arguing to actively force the issue.

And with the goals our Liberal Hegemony has, as long as those in power can convince the people themselves that their goals are moral and just, they can simply lead us along to the conclusions they desire, after which everything else tends to fall into place.




TL;DR: get fucked, you weird goofball
 
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In a domestic sense, just look at Jan6th and the BLM protests and riots that preceded it. As long as you can at least argue the most tenuous connection to some sort of Liberal 'feels-driven' justification, you'll largely be protected under the umbrella of Liberal Democracy. But stray away from that and you'll quickly be maligned as the 'enemy' and the entire weight of our System will fall on your head. Free Speech is only Free so long as you're mindful of the current Groupthink.

Ok. I see where you are coming from. But I do not see this as groupthink. I see what you are calling groupthink, as what a democracy looks like. "Group think" is inevitable in a democracy and largely is contained within party-identifying behaviors. At least entertain the possibility, this is actual human demands. It can be called "groupthink" and I know what you mean, but democracy is not an assembly of philosophers.

I do not see my thoughts as products of obedience. I actively want what I want.

Conservatives or libertarians, or anarchists, suffer the same problem. Once you are talking about more than say 10 people? You are gonna get group behavior going.

And the facts of US elections prove there is no heavy hand steering this. This is simply history.

For example:

Republicans run on "we are going to outlaw abortion," and when voter turnout surges to repudiate that goal, if you call that groupthink you are damning democracy itself. It is a common thing to call one's opposition a hivemind, but your group is all full of independent thinkers. But that's childish, no?

A deeper question!!

Do you think, then, that democracy is insufficient? And what would you add?

Because this thing you described in your post is a boogeyman story you are telling I think. Time did not stop when you or your parents or your grandparents figured out "how things work." That is one of the necessary lessons one has to learn as one ages, because sure as you are born, time WILL pass you by. Especially if you curse at its cruel indifference to any demand it stop. Ecce FoH forums. The politics threads are filled with loss and sadness, to the degree people are convinced it simply *must* be some conspiracy.

No. Yer just on the wrong side of the trendlines. No shame in that. But stop crying. Be a brave Amish.
 
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Araysar, you are welcome. You contribute little but cut and pastes. No detailed analysis and summary. You are Pissy with more focus and coherence, but it's still cut and paste work.

But as I have been saying over in the smooth brain thread, one is foolish if one thinks one knows the required ratio of idiots to non-idiots in this world. So there is no shame in cut and pasting loordofwar account for sale all day.

So again, I say you are welcome. If you will notice, your thread only has action when other people post in it.
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Loser Araysar

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Araysar, you are welcome. You contribute little but cut and pastes. No detailed analysis and summary. You are Pissy with more focus and coherence, but it's still cut and paste work.

But as I have been saying over in the smooth brain thread, one is foolish if one thinks one knows the required ratio of idiots to non-idiots in this world. So there is no shame in cut and pasting loordofwar account for sale all day.

So again, I say you are welcome.

I literally just pointed it to you but because you are mentally too feeble to figure out why parents who raise children might have a problem with the current "Western liberal democratic model", I have to read your complaints about lack of a "detailed analysis and summary" as if you were owed one.

It seems like if I was gracious enough to even spend time writing one, you'd be too stupid to understand it.

If you will notice, your thread only has action when other people post in it.

That's how threads work. What is the other option? For the thread to only have action when I post in it?

You are an idiot, who is spamming word salads to sound smart.
 
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Chris

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I literally just pointed it to you but because you are mentally too feeble to figure out why parents who raise children might have a problem with the current "Western liberal democratic model", I have to read your complaints about lack of a "detailed analysis and summary" as if you were owed one.

It seems like if I was gracious enough to even spend time writing one, you'd be too stupid to understand it.



That's how threads work. What is the other option? For the thread to only have action when I post in it?

You are an idiot, who is spamming word salads to sound smart.
He means that everyone is talking to each other about you and your interests (russian propaganda), not so much to you.
 
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Loser Araysar

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He means that everyone is talking to each other about you and your interests (russian propaganda), not so much to you.

Well that's a lie. Every one of you talks to me and about me, as befitting a thread that has my name in the title