Debate Roundabouts: Efficiency in Action or Vortex of Death

Larnix · Oct 17, 2017

My first experience with a roundabout was in Australia driving on the other side. It was not fun and I hated them.

After living in Europe for a few years and becoming comfortable with them I now despise not using them. It is just ike anything else with driving it takes practice to get used to them and if your not confident you may puss out.

I live back in the states now and I will say some of the larger ones have to many signs and it tends to make it more difficult.

Hoss · Oct 17, 2017

wormie said:
Its not a good scientific experiment but not because of what you stated. I am sure the drivers selected were not a good representation of the overall driving population. And so the experiment only suggests that there might be benefits to roundabouts over stop signs and nothing more. However it does make sense to check how well these things would work when people are familiar with the system instead of just throwing confused people at it.

How does that make sense? In America you will never get a street loaded with drivers who are all experts at negotiating traffic circles of death (TCODs). At least not in our lifetime. Set aside that it's a terrible idea, but even if you forced it upon people and made them learn to love it (like a traffic version of stockholm syndrome) it would take untold billions of dollars to get them installed at every intersection. You'd have to get them all because if you leave any 4 way stops people will get constant reminders of how shitty the TCODs are.

And that's not even getting into the fact that as people get more comfortable with them, accidents will increase. Because when people get comfortable with traffic, they stop checking their blind spot.

wormie · Oct 17, 2017

Hoss said:
How does that make sense? In America you will never get a street loaded with drivers who are all experts at negotiating traffic circles of death (TCODs). At least not in our lifetime. Set aside that it's a terrible idea, but even if you forced it upon people and made them learn to love it (like a traffic version of stockholm syndrome) it would take untold billions of dollars to get them installed at every intersection. You'd have to get them all because if you leave any 4 way stops people will get constant reminders of how shitty the TCODs are.

And that's not even getting into the fact that as people get more comfortable with them, accidents will increase. Because when people get comfortable with traffic, they stop checking their blind spot.

It makes sense because you are comparing a system the drivers are exposed to every day to a system that they almost never use? A little normalization seems like a prudent thing to add to your test. And all that other shit about "In America"? Who gives a fuck? The test is about comparing stop all way intersections and their alternative, the round about. The location doesnt matter.

BrutulTM · Oct 17, 2017

Hateyou said:
I didn’t mean to turn this into the Michael Brown in Roundabout Town but I feel this is relevant:
View attachment 154941

There was an accident somewhat similar to this in Billings. Turns out one of the downsides of roundabouts is that you can't go through them while passed out drunk as easily as a standard intersection.

BrutulTM · Oct 17, 2017

Hoss said:
How does that make sense? In America you will never get a street loaded with drivers who are all experts at negotiating traffic circles of death (TCODs). At least not in our lifetime. Set aside that it's a terrible idea, but even if you forced it upon people and made them learn to love it (like a traffic version of stockholm syndrome) it would take untold billions of dollars to get them installed at every intersection. You'd have to get them all because if you leave any 4 way stops people will get constant reminders of how shitty the TCODs are.

And that's not even getting into the fact that as people get more comfortable with them, accidents will increase. Because when people get comfortable with traffic, they stop checking their blind spot.

This is a lot of ass talk, but even if you are correct that the Mythbusters got corrupted by "big roundabout" and intentionally threw the experiment for some reason, real world studies have shown that they speed up traffic and reduce accidents.

I am very skeptical of your assertion that it is impossible for American drivers to master them "in our lifetime". I got the hang of them after about the 5th one I went through and by the 10th one I was pretty confident. Of course like everyone else, I am an exceptional driver drowning in a sea of incompetents.

k^M · Oct 17, 2017

BrutulTM said:
There was an accident somewhat similar to this in Billings. Turns out one of the downsides of roundabouts is that you can't go through them while passed out drunk as easily as a standard intersection.

There's one right next to this subdivisions mailbox that I can see from my porch, can confirm that drunk idiots either go straight over the raised cement (meant to look nice, not be a lane) or crash into the tree in the middle of it. Granted I'm assuming they were drunk, but quite possibly just idiots.

Lendarios · Oct 17, 2017

Roundabout are a better way of increasing traffic flow at intersections.

This is not some communist ploy, it is simply a reality backed by lots of traffic studies.

roundabouts > trafic lights> 4 way stop sign.

Gravel · Oct 17, 2017

We've got a roundabout at the main intersection of the base I work on. I'll be honest, I have no idea how the traffic would ever flow properly there without it. Everyone knows how to use it.

Most of the roundabouts I see other places are single lane though, which I dont think function as well. This one has a 2nd lane on the outside for people doing a 90 degree turn. You only use the inside lane (and therefore yield) if you're going across or to the left. Otherwise the outside lanes never stop and never intersect with other traffic.

lurkingdirk · Oct 17, 2017

BrutulTM said:
This is a lot of ass talk, but even if you are correct that the Mythbusters got corrupted by "big roundabout" and intentionally threw the experiment for some reason, real world studies have shown that they speed up traffic and reduce accidents.

I am very skeptical of your assertion that it is impossible for American drivers to master them "in our lifetime". I got the hang of them after about the 5th one I went through and by the 10th one I was pretty confident. Of course like everyone else, I am an exceptional driver drowning in a sea of incompetents.

They introduced roundabouts here where I live about four years ago. There were zero within a hundred miles back then, now there are 15 in town I can think of. One in particular I use almost daily. It used to be a four way stop, now it's a roundabout, and morning traffic is so much better. If you left after 8 you'd spend 7 or 8 minutes getting through that four way stop. Now, if you leave after 8, it takes less than a minute to get through the roundabout. The same is true all over town. People adapted to them almost immediately, especially those who drive them daily.

I like roundabouts a lot. I'm told they're also pretty good for snow clearing, too.

Big Phoenix · Oct 18, 2017

BrutulTM said:
I'm willing to wager that 90% of the objection to roundabouts is that people aren't used to them and don't feel comfortable going through them. When traffic gets backed up, people blame the roundabout because hey, you gotta blame something right?

Roundabouts here are shit. There are a few scattered throughout Phoenix in side streets and every one is garbage because the morons who built them made the circle so small you have to brake heavily before entering them. Basically quasi stop signs.

Aldarion · Oct 18, 2017

BrutulTM said:
So you're saying you're too much of a pussy to take your slot? You're usually talking about a fraction of a second delay if someone gets in ahead of you. Whether or not you are correct about "incentivizing aggressive driving" the fact remains that even the pussies are getting through the intersection faster than they would a 4-way stop which benefits everyone, and it's not like nobody ever cuts in line at a 4-way.

Naw man I'm a steely eyed killer like everyone else on the internet, I'm just asking for a friend who isnt quite as aggressive.

If you think relying on variation in aggressiveness among drivers is a good and reasonable method for determining who has right of way in an intersection we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll be over here waiting in line with the rest of civilized society while all you brave men play chicken in the roundabout.

BrutulTM · Oct 18, 2017

Aldarion said:
Naw man I'm a steely eyed killer like everyone else on the internet, I'm just asking for a friend who isnt quite as aggressive.

If you think relying on variation in aggressiveness among drivers is a good and reasonable method for determining who has right of way in an intersection we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll be over here waiting in line with the rest of civilized society while all you brave men play chicken in the roundabout.

I'm interested in efficiency and getting people down the road as quickly as possible. You seem to have a very strong sense of fairness with regard to people going in the right order, but when you're talking about a 1 second delay per car vs. 20 or 30 at a 4-way, I'd look at it pragmatically. Also, you see people at busy 4-ways pull up, let one car go, and then step on it whether it's their turn or not all the time. You can't get rid of aggressive drivers but you can improve traffic flow.

Aldarion · Oct 18, 2017

BrutulTM said:
I'm interested in efficiency and getting people down the road as quickly as possible. You seem to have a very strong sense of fairness with regard to people going in the right order, but when you're talking about a 1 second delay per car vs. 20 or 30 at a 4-way, I'd look at it pragmatically. Also, you see people at busy 4-ways pull up, let one car go, and then step on it whether it's their turn or not all the time. You can't get rid of aggressive drivers but you can improve traffic flow.

Yeah, thats a good way of putting it. I value fairness over moving maximum cars per hour. Any solution will be a tradeoff between those goals and I favor fairness.

Interestingly I have heard the same argument about shitty asian cultural practices of refusing to wait in line and instead using the chaotic horde approach at e.g. food service establishments. The argument goes, they find they can serve more customers per hour with the chaotic horde method. In both cases my reaction is the same: I don't care how many sandwiches you sell per hour, wait your turn in line!

Borzak · Oct 18, 2017

The ones I mentioned above force a lane change in the middle of the circle. It's right between the interstate and a truck stop. First stop after 100 miles of interstate, endless long line of semis trying to change lanes in the middle of the roundabout. Biggest issue is there are no standards. There are standards and laws for stop signs, roundabouts are like whatever someone dreamed up that day. Drive 100 miles and it's something else. I noticed at one of them the other day there were 5 signs entering the circle for which lane turned, which didn't, when to change lanes since you had to mid circle and such. As opposed to one signle sotp sign.

Hoss · Oct 18, 2017

wormie said:
It makes sense because you are comparing a system the drivers are exposed to every day to a system that they almost never use? A little normalization seems like a prudent thing to add to your test. And all that other shit about "In America"? Who gives a fuck? The test is about comparing stop all way intersections and their alternative, the round about. The location doesnt matter.

BrutulTM said:
There was an accident somewhat similar to this in Billings. Turns out one of the downsides of roundabouts is that you can't go through them while passed out drunk as easily as a standard intersection.

Lenindoritos is on your side in this argument. You can't win. Time to cut bait.

Ambiturner · Oct 18, 2017

Get your race shit out of my roundabout thread

Lendarios · Oct 18, 2017

Hoss said:
Lenindoritos is on your side in this argument. You can't win. Time to cut bait.

I don't know what to say. accidents at roundabouts are safer than accidents at intersections. You are never gonna t-bone someone in roundabout, as you always approach in an gentler angle, ie not 90 degrees.

How often people get t-boned at a traffic light? All the time, and those left turns into incoming traffic are just horrible. Roundabout accidents do happen, but are mostly sideswipes, or cutting people off/ rear ending them.

Busses do fuck roundabouts, that is because bus drivers don't give a shit and never yield.

Aldarion · Oct 18, 2017

Lendarios said:
I don't know what to say. accidents at roundabouts are safe than accidents at intersections. You are never gonna t-bone someone in roundabout you always approach in an gentler angle, ie not 90 degrees.

How often people get t-boned at a traffic light? All the time, and those left turns into incoming traffic are just horrible. Roundabout accidents do happen, but are mostly sideswipes, or cutting people off/ rear ending them.

Busses do fuck roundabouts, that is because bus drivers don't give a shit and never yield.

This is a bad argument and youd have to do some kind of statistical gymnastics to find support for it.

At a stop sign, accidents happen while traveling 0-10 mph as you start back up. At a roundabout, if an accident happens, it happens while accelerating at full speed because the most aggressive driver has right of way and no one stops.

The efficiency argument at least had some logic. Claiming that not stopping is somehow safer than stopping is just a bad argument that should be abandoned.

ZyyzYzzy · Oct 18, 2017

Aldarion said:
This is a bad argument and youd have to do some kind of statistical gymnastics to find support for it.

At a stop sign, accidents happen while traveling 0-10 mph as you start back up. At a roundabout, if an accident happens, it happens while accelerating at full speed because the most aggressive driver has right of way and no one stops.

The efficiency argument at least had some logic. Claiming that not stopping is somehow safer than stopping is just a bad argument that should be abandoned.

This dude is retarded

Lendarios · Oct 18, 2017

Aldarion

total mental gymnastics.. right

Roundabout benefits | WSDOT

A 37 percent reduction in overall collisions
A 75 percent reduction in injury collisions
A 90 percent reduction in fatality collisions
A 40 percent reduction in pedestrian collisions

Debate Roundabouts: Efficiency in Action or Vortex of Death

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