Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

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Tuco

Tuco

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Maybe I'm naive but I'd like to think that researchers only use chimps over mice when they have to because of their higher cognitive abilities and that destitute lives are necessary for whatever research rather than less costly. But I really am ignorant of what that type of research considers normal practice.
 
hodj

hodj

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Its just hard because there's so much left to learn from them and they're going to be extinct in another 100 years at most.

All the great apes will be, for the most part.

To be sure the chimps in that video have gone through some pretty heavy medical research.

I dunno, I accept that it might be necessary in some cases. If you think you have a cure for some virulent disease and need to test it on chimpanzees to save potentially millions of human lives, the cost is acceptable I suppose, but like I said, there won't be chimpanzees in another 100 years so there won't even be that possibility in the future. Not that medical research is solely responsible for that, in fact it would be overpopulation and overhunting in Africa that is most responsible for that fact. Still.

Dude some of the stuff I've read and seen on them its pretty incredible how closely they resemble ourselves in social structure, interpersonal relations, etc.
 
Tuco

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Do you mean extinct in the wild or extinct period, as in not even zoos can save them?
 
hodj

hodj

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Most animals don't breed very well in captivity.

Definitely extinct in the wild, almost entirely extinct in the zoos.

That goes for practically every great ape you can think of, too.

Its pretty shitty.

added:

Honestly 100 years is a very generous number

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...y-experts.html

13 years ago it was predicted by 2020 most of them would be extinct and its looking like it will probably end up that way

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...-stanford.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1016085130.htm

Only 6000 or so sumatran orangutans left in the wild.

More information on the overall problem here as well in the factsheets on the side panel

http://www.fws.gov/international/wil...tion-fund.html
 
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Pinch_sl

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You need a very good reason to get approved for any kind of research on non human primates. I work on lab rats, and we are currently working on approval for a study on some pigs and that alone resulted in a lot more red tape and an order of magnitude more regulations. Basically, IACUC (one of the regulating bodies for animal research) wants you to use as small an animal as possible and if you want anything more than a mouse or a rat you need justification on why only a larger animal will suffice. It usually takes months to get protocols approved and the staff veterinarians have the final say. It isn't as though scientists can just order some chimpanzees and run whatever tests they want on them. For a protocol to get approved you literally have to outline and schedule every single procedure and interaction the animal will undergo, and any changes to this plan have to be approved as amendments. It is a pretty tightly regulated system, at least from my experience at a research university.
 
Tuco

Tuco

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I feel pretty good about that but I wonder if, like all bureaucracies, there isn't corruption to sidestep the process that are done by the more connected labs.
 
T

Troll_sl

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Have a friend that works at the ONPRC (Oregon National Primate Research Center). She's in the ORIO office, which basically makes sure that the research done there is legitimate and rigorously controlled to protect the animals. She jokes that the primates there get better care and attention than the employees. And researches have to jump through hoops to jump through the hoops that make someone even consider their research.
 
hodj

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All that is well and good but that video posted asserts that this is the first time in many of those chimpanzees lives, some of them well over 50 years of age, that they have ever seen sky, or felt grass, or been able to groom and interact with other chimpanzees without bars in the way.

Grooming is critical to a chimpanzee's mental health. Interaction with other chimpanzees is as well. Just like with humans, if you lock a human up in a small area and refuse them human interaction, basic grooming and other necessities, you get a madman rather quickly.

We hope that they're all treated better than the researchers, but the evidence often is that the opposite is true.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/201...nel-says-video

A senior scientific advisory panel at the National Institutes of Health, in a step toward phasing out the use of chimpanzees in federally funded medical research, has found "no compelling evidence" to support keeping hundreds of chimpanzees at NIH facilities and recommends that all but about 50 chimps be retired.

This small group would remain available as a contingency should some unforeseen disease emerge for which chimps would be the best stand-ins for humans. But they, along with the retirees, would be housed in facilities designed to more adequately accommodate the full range of normal chimp physical and social activities - from climbing, foraging, and daily nest-building to hanging out in sizable groups on branches high off the ground, according to the panel.

The panel also recommends ending 16 of 30 research projects involving chimpanzees that the NIH currently is funding. The largest proportional hit falls on biomedical research, one of three categories of projects. Six out of nine current biomedical projects would end.

The ultimate driver behind the recommendations: concerns about the value and ethics of using chimpanzees, biologically the nearest relative to humans, for physically painful and intrusive infectious-disease research.
Click to expand...
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...ih-chimp-fate/

Some articles on the situation that help clarify for people.
 
Brad2770

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Extinction? I think not!

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Weaponsfree_sl

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Troll_sl said:
Have a friend that works at the ONPRC (Oregon National Primate Research Center). She's in the ORIO office, which basically makes sure that the research done there is legitimate and rigorously controlled to protect the animals. She jokes that the primates there get better care and attention than the employees. And researches have to jump through hoops to jump through the hoops that make someone even consider their research.
Click to expand...
Had an anthropology professor years back that worked a lot with primates, and he said many of the same things--and said when you didn't treat them well, really well, they went kinda crazy and got all depressed which was not helpful for research.
 
Soygen

Soygen

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I can't wait till 3D printers are common household appliances. I'm already tempted to buy one of the entry-level ones, even though I don't have any real use for it yet.
 
Tuco

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I wouldn't pioneer the technology until it can make something you want cheaper than you can get it elsewhere.
 
Soygen

Soygen

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Yeah, the temptation is based solely on geeking out with some new toy. Luckily the price is still high enough(think they start at a couple thousand) to keep me from wasting money.
 
Tuco

Tuco

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Lenas_sl said:
Well then it's not really pioneering, that's just being smart.
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Those are not mutually exclusive things and yes, being an early adopter of technology you actually will use vs tech you will sit on a shelf is pioneering.
 
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