Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

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hodj

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Yeah we can't really observe electrons directly either, their mass is so tiny and they are not really anything more than a point/cloud in microscopic space with a high negative energy charge.

This whole canard of it has to be directly observed to be verified is simply untrue at its root.
 

Furry

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cause gravity waves and QE is ALL OF SCIENCE!!!!
 

hodj

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Its the core of physics, which is the core of chemistry, which is the core of biology, which describes the diversity and form and function of all life as we know it.

Its not all of science, but its a damn important goddamn part of it.

added:

JFC Japan.
 

Asshat wormie

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Furry clearly doesnt get math. Thats where all his stupidity comes from.
 

Sentagur

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Those 2 A-Bombs did more damage than anyone anticipated.
What in the actual F*CK
 

Szlia

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At a fundamental level, I have a hard time understanding how one can be against Furry's position. You have a theory, you devise an experiment to test it, you expect to detect something with your experiment within a certain time frame, so when time's up and you have not detected your something, there is an issue somewhere. The theory is wrong OR you chose the wrong experiment to test the theory OR you chose the right experiment and failed in its execution OR you chose the right experiment, did it well, but messed the estimation of how much result it could yield in the time frame OR any combinations of the above...

Nevertheless at that very point, you can't really say anything about the theory that is definitive.

In the specific case of gravity waves, my gut feeling is that the experiment is a bit shit and that it would be a lot better if set on the moon. Good luck makingthathappen!
 

hodj

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The issue is that the theory is a fundamental theory evidenced by copious amounts of other evidence, and the person who devised the theory felt it wouldn't be possible to verify this aspect of it directly through observation anyway. And copious amounts of other evidence supports the circumstantial case, even if you can't verify it directly.

Its a bit like a murder, where you can strongly circumstantially demonstrate who the killer is, but you can't go back in time and actually witness the murder happening directly.
 

Szlia

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Is it really what is happening here though? My understanding is that they expected to be able to detect something and did not, sosomethingwent wrong. The way you frame it, it seems the most likely culprit is not the theory, but you still can't rule it out until you actually find the culprit.
 

hodj

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Yes, that is really what is happening here. Einstein, when he formulated the theory and discovered the idea of gravitational waves said that he felt they were too small to be detected. It wasn't until the 60s that people started to think maybe they could. Then people built the LIGO first round of machines, and weren't able to detect the waves (here on the surface of the planet) so they've rebuilt it 1000x as powerful, and that test was only started 12 or 13 days ago, and is expected to run for five years before any results can be published. So in regards to the question, its just too early to tell all around, especially to be making judgement calls like "The most fundamental theory in all of chemistry and most of physics is falsified by not being able to verify this one extremely tiny measurement that the person who came up with the theory in the first place wasn't even sure you'd ever be able to verify."

Shit happens all the time in science. You modify the hypothesis or the experiment and try again.

Failure is an important part of the process.
 

Ambiturner

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Is it really what is happening here though? My understanding is that they expected to be able to detect something and did not, sosomethingwent wrong. The way you frame it, it seems the most likely culprit is not the theory, but you still can't rule it out until you actually find the culprit.
That's not accurate. They were HOPING to be able to detect them, but the idea that they would definitely detect them in previous experiments is nonsense.
 

Furry

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That's not accurate. They were HOPING to be able to detect them, but the idea that they would definitely detect them in previous experiments is nonsense.
I'll agree as far as this. Gravity waves aren't completely excluded yet. They are simply to the level of 'unlikely' to be detected. Mathematically, the certainty is about 99% that waves should have been detected, but to exclude them reasonably, certainty must reach ~2x10^-7 that the results are accurate. I don't know the exact capabilities of LIGO when it relaunched its new version, but it will likely take 2-4 years to either discover gravity waves or exclude the theory.
 

Running Dog_sl

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I'll agree as far as this. Gravity waves aren't completely excluded yet. They are simply to the level of 'unlikely' to be detected. Mathematically, the certainty is about 99% that waves should have been detected, but to exclude them reasonably, certainty must reach ~2x10^-7 that the results are accurate. I don't know the exact capabilities of LIGO when it relaunched its new version, but it will likely take 2-4 years to either discover gravity waves or exclude the theory.
As I understand it the sensitivity of the detector limits the range; for events outside that range that (theoretically) produce gravitational waves, those waves would not be detected.

For the original sensitivity, the number of events they expected to see within range was about 1 every 10 years, so seeing none wasn't surprising. With the enhanced sensitivity and increased range, they expect to see maybe 10 events per year.
 

Furry

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As I understand it the sensitivity of the detector limits the range; for events outside that range that (theoretically) produce gravitational waves, those waves would not be detected.

For the original sensitivity, the number of events they expected to see within range was about 1 every 10 years, so seeing none wasn't surprising. With the enhanced sensitivity and increased range, they expect to see maybe 10 events per year.
Original sensitivity I read was calculated at 1 event/ year, and at some point it was upgraded to what you said (10 events per year). I never checked the exact numbers myself though. There's also a high variation in the sensitivity of the machine due to numerous factor in how ideal the conditions are. Since multiple machines are required, you can only go by the least sensitive of the group at the same time.

I believe its been improved even more since the 10 events per year number as of a month or two ago, to the latest science run expecting to see 60-100 events per year. The run started late September or so. Each month that it runs with its current configuration will be approximately equivalent to running a year worth of observations at its original specifications. That means after a year or so of no signal, we'd be entering the range of .001% chance that gravity waves exist as theorized.

Better prepare for science itself to fall apart. Soon we're going to be living in caves mother fuckers.
 

hodj

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They've been trying to detect themdirectlyfor a long time.

As of early 2014, no direct detection of gravitational waves had been accomplished. However, a number of experiments had provided evidence that gravitational waves did exist, notably the observation of binary pulsars, the orbits of which evolve precisely matching the predictions of energy loss through general relativistic gravitational-wave emission. The 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded for this work.[3]
They've detected them indirectly, in much the same way electrons are detected indirectly, already.
 

Cad

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They've been trying to detect themdirectlyfor a long time.



They've detected them indirectly, in much the same way electrons are detected indirectly, already.
Hodj I'm not trying to be a shit here, but saying the orbits of something match our calculations seems shady to me, considering we can't figure out why galaxies and other very large bodies orbit the way they do so we have the dark matter fudge factor. I'm not saying gravity waves don't exist because I am pretty sure I have no fucking idea what they're supposed to be but before we fly off calling people stupid for being skeptical (I know we're talking about Furry here) I hope we have something more solid than that.
 

hodj

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Im fine with skepticism on the issue, tbh.

But it is very similar to the electron. We cannot visibly observe an electron. They are a tiny tiny point of high negative charge. We only know they exist because all our mathematical models and predictions based on them operate as expected based on our understanding of them.

Tbh I dont find furrys position here in terms of his belief claim to be unwarranted, only his assertions that theyll never be found and dont exist is the step too far.

If his position is "I dont find the current evidence sufficient to warrant belief" though, Im actually completely okay with that from him, and others.