Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

uncognito

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I am a hippy and I have no real issue with GMOs. trying to feed the planet is a good thing. I do think monstanto are a bunch of assholes. but i think most big companies are assholes, seems like its required.

they do need to hurry up and make pumpkin sized strawberries that grow like weeds in every climate.


*Trying to put pesticides into plants sounds fucking nasty and is a very easy selling point to make people dislike GMOs. no matter if it actually true/hurts people or not.
 

BrutulTM

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That's part of the problem. All you have to do to send dumb people into a panic is say "They're putting the chemicals in our foods!!!!!" and who cares whether or not it's true. "They're being mean to the animals!" works just as well.
 

Lithose

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I'll admit I only spent about three minutes googling the topic.

Edit -- and another minute just now. They propose to use renewable energy to power the grow lamps. Using solar panels to capture sunlight to convert it to electricity and run it to the lamps that are meant to replace sunlight. Hm.
Yeah, because of you need a lot of directional light due to the multiple layers. It's actually pretty labor and power intensive, but its yields per land/water are much better than normal farming. With robots and cheap power, it would be a no brainer.
 

Lithose

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*Trying to put pesticides into plants sounds fucking nasty and is a very easy selling point to make people dislike GMOs. no matter if it actually true/hurts people or not.
There was a lecture I saw once, where a botanist was discussing why he doesn't eat "true" organic (He said most organic was bullshit). He said, effectively, that for crops without pesticides to survive, they have been selected as the crops who are able to keep away insects. Which means that farmers are selecting crops with high amounts of natural pesticides/poisons/carcinogens. Which means, ironically, crops that need less powerful pesticides, are more dangerous to eat because they have higher natural rates of carcinogens than crops that are grown in environments where pests are controlled by another factor that is easily removed from the crop (IE an environment with pesticides)


I'm not sure how bullshit or not that was, I forgot the lecture I was watching. Will try to find it..so take it with a grain of salt. But many plants contain nature pesticides that humans use to our benefit; Caffeine, for example, is within various plant species because it kills insects (Same with nicotine). And we now consume it for pleasure; so it's not always a bad thing.
 

Borzak

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Had a guest speaker while in school for forestry/wildlife management that went on about natural foods and such. Said he was a big consumer of soy beans. Well unless you grow them yourself soybeans get more herbicide/pesticides and no telling what else sprayed on them than any other crop. Guy was out there.

I mean shit someo f them will spray from a tractor with a 100 ft. boom off the side, then spray from the air to defoliate them right before harvest.
 

BrutulTM

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I toured an organic vegetable farm a few months ago and it's a terrible way to farm. Those poor bastards had to work so fucking hard to fight weeds that I just felt sorry for them. My beef with organic is that it rules out common sense. There are situations where using less pesticide or doing certain things to improve soil health is absolutely beneficial and then there are times when pesticide use would be better both environmentally and financially but they can't do it because of this list of arbitrary rules that makes it "organic". This guy didn't sound like a true believer in organic. In fact he even said once on the tour that he wished that he could spray some weeds but he felt that he needed that certified organic label for marketing purposes at the farmer's market and in the hippy grocery stores where he sells his shit. The guy was obviously working his ass off and barely making ends meet. If he is any indication, then organic produce should be even more expensive than it is.
 

Rezz

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Organic is generally bunk deal for everyone but places like Whole Foods. Having worked in the food industry for over a decade, I've dealt with a lot of vendors and farmers. A lot of farmers have to deal with randomization in crop yield due to the way seeds grow outside of a super controlled environment, not to mention that veggies aren't uniform so you end up with a lot of variation, which means you have issues marketing the "funny" shaped ones to restaurants etc. So not only do they tend to have semi-random yields, but they also have semi-random ability to actually sell their yield. The price increase reflects the fact that to a degree, as well as the work to fit into specific hippy-standards for getting that Organic label.

I'm all about supporting local growers and what have you, but getting that price bump for an organic sticker chafes me a tad, even if I'm no longer in the industry. Cali, however, has a lot of pushback against more commercialized farming methods, so you end up having extra transportation fees attached to a lot of the GMO products depending on distance. Very much a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation for certain types of crops (limes were retarded expensive 3 years ago when trying to purchase in bulk, due to them requiring a 4+ hour transportation time and nearby farms had crap yields due to the drought) and it really makes me dislike the hippification of our farm industry in recent years. A nice tomato from your home garden or a local farm is great. Paying 2-3x the price because the locals refuse to have GMO crops nearby and then nature tells the hippy farmers to fuck off via weather sucks.
 

Azrayne

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Does anyone know of any good sources which cover the whole GMO debate from a fairly unbiased perspective (books, docos, whatever)? It's something I don't know a whole lot about, but it seems like I should make an effort to learn more, since I imagine it's only going to become a bigger issue as time goes on.
 

Big Phoenix

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Monsanto is pretty shitty honestly but their business practices only seem especially sharp because they are dealing with farmers and shit. If they did the same thing in personal computers people would just be like "business world is tough man" but we have this picturesque view of farmers living off the land and being the backbone of America.
Lol nice summation. Anyone in a massive uproar over software ownership going away and everything being a "license"?
 

Chanur

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Lol nice summation. Anyone in a massive uproar over software ownership going away and everything being a "license"?
I can't stand that personally. Tons of stuff I have not bought because its a 1 year license. Fuck that.
 

pharmakos

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That's part of the problem. All you have to do to send dumb people into a panic is say "They're putting the chemicals in our foods!!!!!" and who cares whether or not it's true. "They're being mean to the animals!" works just as well.
reminds me of several years ago when people were upset that Fireball whiskey had propylene glycol in it... propylene glycol is less toxic than ethanol, lol. but the media just hyped it up pointing out that propylene glycol was in antifreeze.

its all in how you spin it... ethanol is in rocket fuel. *shrugs*
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Does anyone know of any good sources which cover the whole GMO debate from a fairly unbiased perspective (books, docos, whatever)? It's something I don't know a whole lot about, but it seems like I should make an effort to learn more, since I imagine it's only going to become a bigger issue as time goes on.
Take genetic engineering, recombinant DNA, biochemistry, protein physics, immunology, molecular biology and labs.
 

Tuco

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I think that's where they add like hydroponics style towers to everything.
I'll admit I only spent about three minutes googling the topic.

Edit -- and another minute just now. They propose to use renewable energy to power the grow lamps. Using solar panels to capture sunlight to convert it to electricity and run it to the lamps that are meant to replace sunlight. Hm.
Obviously different but the Detroit Airport has a vertical indoor garden I really liked.

I didn't take a pic but here's one at Edmonton's airport.

EIA-Living-Wall-Green-over-Grey-8.jpg

Edmonton Airport Unveils Massive Air-Cleaning Living Green Wall! | Inhabitat - Green Design, Innovation, Architecture, Green Building


People always paint the future as being either an industrially savaged place, or some sleek glass and steel nightmare. I think once we master the technology what will become perpetually vogue is indoor gardens. I don't know what kind of problems they deal with in terms of dead vegetation, weeds, insects, humidity. I also don't know the costs of running the lighting, trimming, replacing vegetation etc. I imagine these indoor gardens are way ahead of the technology curve.

If we can GMO our way into vegetation that can survive from electricity from the grid instead of lights (fuck photosynthesis), minimize growth after it reaches its correct size and even grow some fruit quickly it'd be amazing.
 

AngryGerbil

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Only certain species can tolerate conditions like that and I doubt any of our heavy lifting grains can. Even the oblique or horizontal angle of the light could be the thing that makes it not work. That's not even getting into root structure and foliage spread. I'm not trying to hate on the concpet itself, just not sure that wall is any indication that we could do that with sorghum or rice or maize.

(That's an impressive wall though. Probably takes some serious babysitting.)
 

Tuco

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Only certain species can tolerate conditions like that and I doubt any of our heavy lifting grains can. Even the oblique or horizontal angle of the light could be the thing that makes it not work. That's not even getting into root structure and foliage spread. I'm not trying to hate on the concpet itself, just not sure that wall is any indication that we could do that with sorghum or rice or maize.

(That's an impressive wall though. Probably takes some serious babysitting.)
Aye, it's more of an science fiction art piece than a functional demonstration. Proliferation would depend on us being able to GMO so hard we become botanical gods.
 

BrutulTM

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Does anyone know of any good sources which cover the whole GMO debate from a fairly unbiased perspective (books, docos, whatever)? It's something I don't know a whole lot about, but it seems like I should make an effort to learn more, since I imagine it's only going to become a bigger issue as time goes on.
This isn't a place to educate yourself but this short podcast addresses a lot of common concerns about GMOs from a scientific perspective.

GMO Facts and Fiction