Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

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Phazael

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
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We were able to get this incredibly rare material as a byproduct of military production. Anyone still making this shit at this point is not going to admit to it. They have been needing to come up with an alternative power source for a while, anyhow. Even if we were still cranking out nukes like crazy, the P238 was not an infinite resource.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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We were able to get this incredibly rare material as a byproduct of military production. Anyone still making this shit at this point is not going to admit to it. They have been needing to come up with an alternative power source for a while, anyhow. Even if we were still cranking out nukes like crazy, the P238 was not an infinite resource.
P238 can be produced in breeder reactors, which we should be using anyway to reprocess nuclear waste.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
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Ya, we just aren't churning out plutonium 24/7 anymore like we did during the Cold War. Plutonium's primary usage, after all, is in nuclear weapons.
P238 is actually not useful for weapons.

It is a real issue. It took three years of work to get funding to restart it and that funding is currently not even sufficient. A number of projects have been scrapped because it'd put to great a strain on the current stockpile.
 

Eomer

Trakanon Raider
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Originally, except we can make just P238 now. So, not useful for weapons.
Yes, and no one is doing that because it costs a lot of money. Again, the point remains that P238 was nice and plentiful when everyone was cranking out nukes. Now that that isn't a priority, no one gives much of a shit about making P238 on it's own.
 

The Master

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Well, lots of people do, actually. That is kind of the point of the article. We're slowly getting the funding and the production necessary. Hopefully it works out and our deep space program doesn't go the way of the dodo. But P238 can be produced by itself and in and of itself is not useful for weapons. So in no way does it really have anything to do,right now, with weapons.
 

Void

BAU BAU
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This might not really be appropriate in this thread, but I didn't know where else to put it, and it sort of made sense to me since, well, science!

Anyway, I need your help Rerolled! I work with a couple of massive conspiracy theorists. They are friends of mine for the most part, even outside of work, and have been for around 15 years. I only found out about the conspiracy stuff recently. Anyway, we've gotten into it many times at lunch or elsewhere, and I always try to remain civil and considerate, but I'm pretty much at my wit's end now. They are "just trying to open my eyes" and all that other bullshit, and nothing I can say will ever change their mind. I've given up, and told them as much, and told them that we probably shouldn't talk about it any more because it just pisses me off and doesn't accomplish anything.

They won't stop linking me shit "for my own good" though. Now, I could just tell them to go fuck themselves and don't bother talking to me ever again. I've considered that, believe me. But before I go to that extreme, I'd like your help. I know we've had threads in the past (maybe not here, but at FoH for sure) with people debunking these theories, so I'm looking for the best ones on stuff like 9/11, the 13 families, NWO, GMO crops, etc. Or that fuckhead that killed himself in a car accident awhile ago and everyone is convinced that the government put a bomb in his car because he tweeted that they were on to him and he was going to leave town and disappear forever, so this was their last chance to get him. I forget his name, but it was fairly recently, last few months I believe. Shit like that. Well, for the most part, if there is a fucking YouTube video of some nut spouting some crazy, they will have watched it and believed it, but the 9/11 and 13 families/New World Order ones are the big ones they really buy into. Including the Pentagon crash not even being an airplane.

Unfortunately, if it isn't a YouTube video, they probably won't read much that doesn't support their viewpoint unless it has pretty pictures. Long ago I linked them that Popular Mechanics debunking of the 9/11 stuff, and that didn't get much more than a "meh." I tried to explain to them that typically no crazy, energetic, interesting to listen to people make videos about why 9/11 WASN'T a conspiracy, because to the normal people in the world that shit is boring and obvious. It is only the conspiracy people that feel the need to get all emotional about it. But still, the complaint is that the stuff I link just "isn't as compelling."

So I seek your help in finding truly good shit to throw at them. And if it comes down to it, even nasty stuff like charts showing the average IQ of people that believe this shit is significantly lower than those that don't (I have to believe that's true, but there may not be any actual data on it, unfortunately). I'd save those for later, but if I get annoyed enough, sure. I've even tried stuff like Penn & Teller, but the response I get is that they just do it for ratings. Which they do, I can't deny that, and they aren't always 100% accurate on everything, but at least it is "compelling" right? Nope, doesn't work either.

Anyway, if a mod thinks this deserves to be somewhere else, or deleted even, I'll understand. But if anyone has some good links, any type really, I'd love to see them. I'm pretty much done with arguing this, and if they insist on continuing even after I bombard them with good responses, well I guess that's two less friends that I didn't really need anyway, right?

(To be clear, I don't expect any of this to change their minds one bit, and I'm sure most of the responses will be to just stop being friends with them, or at least refuse to continue talking if they bring it up again. It may very well come to that, believe me. But I've already tried the "agree to disagree" thing repeatedly, so this is my attempt to fight fire with fire, and if they won't stop after I've linked just as much "compelling" evidence as they have, I'll feel that I've done my due diligence in trying to salvage the friendship, and feel justified in going scorched earth.)

Thank you for any help, I really appreciate it.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
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This'd be a good time to link that 2005/2006 study that indicated presenting people with facts caused them double-down on their ignorance, not change their minds. There is a wonderful book called "The Structure of a Scientific Revolution" whose basic conclusion is that any new discoveries in science need to wait for the previous generation to die off, because you can't change their minds. No matter how much evidence there is. And those are scientists! Imagine the problem with people in politics or other less rigorous professions. This has led to a somewhat weird situation where increased life expectancy has hindered scientific progress...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/ma...ries.html?_r=0

You are probably not going to change their minds. It isn't about the facts, it is about a psychological need. You would need to fundamentally change their lives and give them a sense of personal agency before facts even had a chance. I don't know how you'd even go about that and I doubt it is worth your time to try.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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It's almost impossible to get a real conspiracy theorist to re-examine the conspiracy. Conspiracy theories are about faith not fact and as such generally the only effective arguments against them are faith based ones.

It depends on what kind of conspiracies they're into. Shit like JFK and Monroe and Lincoln had gay black lover boys are harmless. Shit like alien abuctions aremostlyharmless. Shit like homeopathy and magnets and crystals and vaccinations are mostly harmful, and then you delve into some of the really out there drug addled shit that's completely harmful. Just tell them something like, "Well if that's true we're all fucked to begin with and it really doesn't matter does it? You can be right and miserable if you want to be, that's you decision. I'll be right and hopeful."

If they're spamming you with NSA shit, they might not be conspiracy theorists. It's not paranoia if someone actually is out to get you.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Anyway, I need your help Rerolled! I work with a couple of massive conspiracy theorists
Protip: You might be able to get them to reconsider a few conspiracy theories, especially if they believe the particularly stupid ones (faked moon landing, chem trails etc) but believing in many conspiracy theories isn't a problem that can be fixed by more information. It's a state of mind or a choice. You can't just show them conclusive evidence that theory X is false and they'll say "Oh, well maybe A, B and C are false also because the information supporting A, B and C also supports X."

In conclusion, who cares if they believe in conspiracy theories unless they start acting on the idea that the US govt is out to get them.
This'd be a good time to link that 2005/2006 study that indicated presenting people with facts caused them double-down on their ignorance, not change their minds.
I agree with that study and think it's a very good introspection on the human mind, but all too often I see it misused as evidence that someone is wrong. A conspiracy theorist has more reason to link a study that show people want to continue their current path by ignoring facts because frankly disregarding most conspiracy theories is more comfortable.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Thank God we're talking about Plutonium 238. I was worried we hadn't given the NSA quite enough key words to have them track this forum ;-)
 

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Thank you for any help, I really appreciate it.
Here's a link that could make them realize how crazy conspiracies really are.

http://listverse.com/2013/05/02/10-n...s-proven-true/

Or try this one out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms:
a. We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.
b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The United States could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by U.S. fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

Ya, the US government would NEVER think of killing its own to start a war **snickers**
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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Disinformationis a tactic competing nations have come to use even in peacetime, You can see it in Russia Today, al jazeera and the Chinese news about the west for example. The 9/11 truth movement is heavily exploited by Russia Today to try and undermine the US government, all the major competing nations do it to each other these days even during peacetime.

You could see the effectiveness of this strategy in the Syrian gas episode, a lot of people trusted the Russian statements over the US government statements because it had lost credibility in a lot of peoples eyes.


here's a debunking site I visit
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
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https://www.simonsfoundation.org/qua...antum-physics/

Physicists have discovered a jewel-like geometric object that dramatically simplifies calculations of particle interactions and challenges the notion that space and time are fundamental components of reality.

"This is completely new and very much simpler than anything that has been done before," said Andrew Hodges, a mathematical physicist at Oxford University who has been following the work.

The revelation that particle interactions, the most basic events in nature, may be consequences of geometry significantly advances a decades-long effort to reformulate quantum field theory, the body of laws describing elementary particles and their interactions. Interactions that were previously calculated with mathematical formulas thousands of terms long can now be described by computing the volume of the corresponding jewel-like "amplituhedron," which yields an equivalent one-term expression.

"The degree of efficiency is mind-boggling," said Jacob Bourjaily, a theoretical physicist at Harvard University and one of the researchers who developed the new idea. "You can easily do, on paper, computations that were infeasible even with a computer before."

The new geometric version of quantum field theory could also facilitate the search for a theory of quantum gravity that would seamlessly connect the large- and small-scale pictures of the universe. Attempts thus far to incorporate gravity into the laws of physics at the quantum scale have run up against nonsensical infinities and deep paradoxes. The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity.

"Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things," said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. "Both are suspect."

Locality is the notion that particles can interact only from adjoining positions in space and time. And unitarity holds that the probabilities of all possible outcomes of a quantum mechanical interaction must add up to one. The concepts are the central pillars of quantum field theory in its original form, but in certain situations involving gravity, both break down, suggesting neither is a fundamental aspect of nature.

In keeping with this idea, the new geometric approach to particle interactions removes locality and unitarity from its starting assumptions. The amplituhedron is not built out of space-time and probabilities; these properties merely arise as consequences of the jewel's geometry. The usual picture of space and time, and particles moving around in them, is a construct.

"It's a better formulation that makes you think about everything in a completely different way," said David Skinner, a theoretical physicist at Cambridge University.

The amplituhedron itself does not describe gravity. But Arkani-Hamed and his collaborators think there might be a related geometric object that does. Its properties would make it clear why particles appear to exist, and why they appear to move in three dimensions of space and to change over time.

Because "we know that ultimately, we need to find a theory that doesn't have" unitarity and locality, Bourjaily said, "it's a starting point to ultimately describing a quantum theory of gravity."

Clunky Machinery

The amplituhedron looks like an intricate, multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions. Encoded in its volume are the most basic features of reality that can be calculated, "scattering amplitudes," which represent the likelihood that a certain set of particles will turn into certain other particles upon colliding. These numbers are what particle physicists calculate and test to high precision at particle accelerators like the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland.

rrr_img_44231.jpg
 

Void

BAU BAU
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Thanks for all the links guys, I really appreciate it.

I'm going to give it one last shot and link a bunch of shit, but I agree that they will never change their minds. I know this going in, just as I also know that nothing they show me will ever change my mind either. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% certain that our government (and every other government that has ever existed) does some shady shit and hides it from the public, but I contribute it more to people (and politicians in general) being greedy shitbags that want more power and/or money, not someone deliberately trying to bring about the downfall of our country.

I guess if they keep it up after this, I can start being a dick and not feel bad. Thanks again.
 

Kuro

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Just lean in real close at lunch and whisper "I'm in on it, you halfwits" real quiet-like.