Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (From Software)

Rajaah said:

Up to 3 charges of heal now, stocked 10 skill points. Haven't spent any yet, will go for the counter first. Seems like I can get a point every five minutes fighting the enemies where the Chained Ogre was. They both start with their back to the nearest bonfire so you can OHKO the tougher one and then just flurry the other one. Five minutes per point might even be overestimating because I'm not particularly rushing. Is that good? Surprised at the speed of point-gaining here, was gonna wait till later to grind.

Also I unlocked a port to Hirata Estate when I went back and talked to the NPCs at the Dilapidated Temple to unlock skill point usage etc. It looks like it just puts you up on a cliff and you can't do anything from there. Was I supposed to do something there besides look off the cliff, go "nice", and warp back to where I was?

Edit: Another question, it looks like I need a grand total of about 225 skill points? 127 to max all skills, then another 98 for attack power once I get the ability to raise that later?

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Look below while you're on the cliff. There's a couple places you can grapple off of. It's basically a whole new place to explore. You'll come back to later in the game as well.

Chart of xp needed. You can tell if what you're grinding is good from this.

You'll get extra attack points from memories but if you're going for 99 attack then you'll actually need 5 skill for each extra point after obtaining an item later in the game. Just like all things From, there is a big drop off after a certain level.

stupidmonkey said:

Look below while you're on the cliff. There's a couple places you can grapple off of. It's basically a whole new place to explore. You'll come back to later in the game as well.

Chart of xp needed. You can tell if what you're grinding is good from this.

https://sekiroshadowsdietwice.wiki.fextralife.com/Skill+Points+and+Experience

You'll get extra attack points from memories but if you're going for 99 attack then you'll actually need 5 skill for each extra point after obtaining an item later in the game. Just like all things From, there is a big drop off after a certain level.

https://sekiroshadowsdietwice.wiki.fextralife.com/Attack+Power

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Damn, exp goes up a ton. I grinded to like 15 before it slowed down enough to move on. Didn't take that long either, so I started thinking maybe I could clear half the skill tree before the game really gets going. Nooope.

I'll check out Hirata Estate. Judging from the building in the distance being on fire, I'm guessing that's where the Lady Butterfly fight is, and I don't want to do that yet. Just sort of grinding exp and finding items before I really start progressing, which is gonna wait until I'm ready to put some serious time in.

Rajaah said:

Damn, exp goes up a ton. I grinded to like 15 before it slowed down enough to move on. Didn't take that long either, so I started thinking maybe I could clear half the skill tree before the game really gets going. Nooope.

I'll check out Hirata Estate. Judging from the building in the distance being on fire, I'm guessing that's where the Lady Butterfly fight is, and I don't want to do that yet. Just sort of grinding exp and finding items before I really start progressing, which is gonna wait until I'm ready to put some serious time in.

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Yeah, that's where she is located. It's a long path there and lots to explore.

Did some more with this. Had a blast in Hirata Manor in particular, that place makes you feel super-badass. Something about sneaking around a heavily-guarded place at night in the rain and assassinating everybody.

Got to both of the early big bosses, horseback guy and Lady Butterfly. Got horseback guy down to half on my first try and took off about a quarter of Lady Butterfly's HP. Surprised she only has one life meter, while most minibosses even seem to have two. Horseback guy seems doable, LB felt like I was doing it all wrong. I'm still sort of playing this like it's Bloodborne, using a lot of dashing to avoid hits and then dash-slashing.

The skill that gives you back health when you perform a deathblow is SO GOOD. It's like I have 5 or 6 heals now instead of 3 in terms of how much longevity I have in places like Hirata Manor.

Looking forward to playing the rest of this whenever I'm less busy and can devote like a week to it. It's probably gonna take something like that to actually git gud on the level required.

Update: I haven't played since I reached the first two bosses. Put the game back on the shelf for now, just wanted to try it and maybe get to the first boss(es). When I pick it up again it's gonna be the "fuck or walk" run where I git gud at all costs like I did with the other From games. Just don't have 50+ hours to spend doing that yet.

Hatorade said:

Been following mods for this game, they really coming along.

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Jebus, that fight looked amazing. If From ever added anything to this, a free DLC that's just a Malenia fight would be a good choice.

Hatorade said:

Don’t forget your posture meter comes back faster when you hold block, use that to learn the parry timings.

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That's something that threw me off quite a bit. In Souls (and pretty much every other game of their genre) you put your block down to speed up endurance recovery, so I'm totally used to blocking when needed and then putting it down to recover. Putting/keeping block UP between enemy assaults to recover posture goes against everything I've been doing in other games, lawl.

It's kinda like switching between Nioh/Lies of P/Wo Long/etc and having different buttons do different things on all of them, so every time I switch games I start out by making a bunch of input mistakes. Gonna probably take a bit to unlearn putting block down though.

TJT said:

This is where skills come in. Many skills are completely fucking missable too and without certain ones the game is like playing with your dick in a vice. I totally missed the Ashina arts in my first play through because I simply didn't even go into the room where Tengu was nor did I really give a shit because most From game quests are at best confusing and not rewarding. But if you don't get Ashina Arts you don't get improved deflection/posture damage which makes enemies like O'Rin of the Water literally 4x as hard because deflection is the only way to damage her.

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How far into the game are Ashina Arts?

I built up a ton of skill points (like 25 IIRC) when I was trying out the game in the past. I put a lot of them into Shinobi Arts and I think I might have wasted some levels because some of those don't look like things I'll use. Also got the heal potion upgrades in Prosthetic Arts, which are good buys at least. Would much rather be spending points on Ashina Arts. Though at this point I don't have any points left out of the large amount I started with, so buying into that tree is gonna take some work.

Playing quite a bit of this this morning, officially sold on giving it a real shot. Enjoying the hell out of it so far. Bunch of thoughts:

-Circle dodging being so damn ineffectual in this game is really throwing me off. So used to using that in like, every game.

-Keeping block up to regen the bar, when you put block down to do that in every other From game, is also throwing me off. Trying to get used to just holding block up except to release and tap for parries. My brain always defaults to "put block down after enemy attacks".

-I wish there was a way to change your appearance a bit. A black coat would be pretty cool. Being stuck with this brown coat with stains on it and looking homeless for the entire game isn't that appealing. But I guess it's part of the whole humbling aesthetic of this thing.

-I love the charged firecracker move. Totally wrecks things. Getting prosthetics was really the game-changer moment where the game started being less frustrating and more fun.

-Have that and the Axe equipped, haven't really used the axe yet. I know it's for breaking shields, wondering if it has any other notable uses.

-Horse boss was a great fight, really enjoyable. Took like six tries, but once I figured him out I started feeling like it's a pretty easy fight that I was only losing due to nerves. So I chilled out and got him on the next go. One of those fights where on the go where I got him, I knew I had his number and a win was inevitable.

-Finding the parry window SUPER generous compared to the last parry-heavy games I played (Wo Long and Lies of P). The only problems I'm running into are when I get ganged up on by multiple foes and don't have any firecracker ammo. Multi-foe battles in this game are not the best, because as TJT said, their combos tend to be extended and obnoxious.


One more thing: I don't know what's wrong with Kotaku, or why they've infested the gaming world with all this "easy mode" whining that's pretty much always directed at Fromsoft games. Almost every game does have an easy mode. Not every game is for everyone. I don't expect every complex game to be dumbed down so I can "access" it. Either I learn their systems and rise to their level, or they're not for me.

That said, I can't think of a time where an easy mode ruined a game (except maybe the recent Spider-Man 2 having toggle-able invincibility, which totally drained all of the intensity out of that game). I do think it would ruin Elden Ring or Sekiro though. The whole point of ER is the journey and the overcoming of it that makes you a better person. That IS the story. And Sekiro...without the challenge factor, these incredible battles would cease to be incredible, it'd just be any other game. I'm not going to avoid easy mode if it's there. If a game asks more of me though, I'll rise to the challenge. So I'm glad the option isn't there and every win feels super earned. But that's just me.

Rajaah said:

How far into the game are Ashina Arts?

I built up a ton of skill points (like 25 IIRC) when I was trying out the game in the past. I put a lot of them into Shinobi Arts and I think I might have wasted some levels because some of those don't look like things I'll use. Also got the heal potion upgrades in Prosthetic Arts, which are good buys at least. Would much rather be spending points on Ashina Arts. Though at this point I don't have any points left out of the large amount I started with, so buying into that tree is gonna take some work.

Playing quite a bit of this this morning, officially sold on giving it a real shot. Enjoying the hell out of it so far. Bunch of thoughts:

-Circle dodging being so damn ineffectual in this game is really throwing me off. So used to using that in like, every game.

-Keeping block up to regen the bar, when you put block down to do that in every other From game, is also throwing me off. Trying to get used to just holding block up except to release and tap for parries. My brain always defaults to "put block down after enemy attacks".

-I wish there was a way to change your appearance a bit. A black coat would be pretty cool. Being stuck with this brown coat with stains on it and looking homeless for the entire game isn't that appealing. But I guess it's part of the whole humbling aesthetic of this thing.

-I love the charged firecracker move. Totally wrecks things. Getting prosthetics was really the game-changer moment where the game started being less frustrating and more fun.

-Have that and the Axe equipped, haven't really used the axe yet. I know it's for breaking shields, wondering if it has any other notable uses.

-Horse boss was a great fight, really enjoyable. Took like six tries, but once I figured him out I started feeling like it's a pretty easy fight that I was only losing due to nerves. So I chilled out and got him on the next go. One of those fights where on the go where I got him, I knew I had his number and a win was inevitable.

-Finding the parry window SUPER generous compared to the last parry-heavy games I played (Wo Long and Lies of P). The only problems I'm running into are when I get ganged up on by multiple foes and don't have any firecracker ammo. Multi-foe battles in this game are not the best, because as TJT said, their combos tend to be extended and obnoxious.

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One more thing: I don't know what's wrong with Kotaku, or why they've infested the gaming world with all this "easy mode" whining that's pretty much always directed at Fromsoft games. Almost every game does have an easy mode. Not every game is for everyone. I don't expect every complex game to be dumbed down so I can "access" it. Either I learn their systems and rise to their level, or they're not for me.

That said, I can't think of a time where an easy mode ruined a game (except maybe the recent Spider-Man 2 having toggle-able invincibility, which totally drained all of the intensity out of that game). I do think it would ruin Elden Ring or Sekiro though. The whole point of ER is the journey and the overcoming of it that makes you a better person. That IS the story. And Sekiro...without the challenge factor, these incredible battles would cease to be incredible, it'd just be any other game. I'm not going to avoid easy mode if it's there. If a game asks more of me though, I'll rise to the challenge. So I'm glad the option isn't there and every win feels super earned. But that's just me.

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Tengu gives you the Ashina arts and he's near the entrance of Ashina castle. He's in a room by himself near some of those midgets. He asks you to do some minor thing then gives them to you.

TJT said:

Tengu gives you the Ashina arts and he's near the entrance of Ashina castle. He's in a room by himself near some of those midgets. He asks you to do some minor thing then gives them to you.

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Yeah, I think he's accessible immediately after that first horse boss. Got Ashina Arts, tempted to do some level grinding to forage my way into that skill tree. Nothing from it yet, this was the last thing I did this morning. That overhead-slash at the beginning of Ashina looks pretty great. Can't remember where I level-grinded in the past but I know I found a really good loop somewhere. I know level-grinding is kind of cheese or whatever but it's what I like to do in these games, especially when trying to get skills.

Also tried Lady Butterfly. I remember that fight completely owning me in the first go-around. This time I got her down to about 60% on the first try and was pretty much just playing around. So unless she has some sort of late-fight surprise, I think I'll be able to take her down on the next session.

Surprising how many minibosses there are whose HP can be cut in half with a surprise attack from the get-go. Fought 3 in a row that could all be snuck up on (the samurai at the big locked gate surrounded by gunners, then the samurai in the house on top of the hill, then the assassin lurking down in a well looking for the Wolf). Seems like it's pretty much a requirement to halve their HP, since they each take me multiple tries even with half HP.

Flame Vent is really really good. I think I like it more than firecrackers. One thing I like to do is, if there's an opening to attack, fire off two Flame Vents (or one if I got the Oil debuff on them before then). That puts the Burn DoT on and kinda staggers them. So I'll do Flame Vents, then a bunch of slashes, then back off while the DoT does more damage, then repeat. It's working pretty well. I can also go toe-to-toe with foes and play the game normally though. Parrying is way easier than it was two years ago, after playing things like Wo Long. Problem is that a lot of foes freaking one-shot me if I make one mistake, so after a few of those I start using other tactics to ensure a win.

Need more HP. I hope I didn't skip any minibosses during my first run at the game. I cleared quite a few areas it looks like. I should do a sweep of Hirata Estate and make sure I didn't miss anything there during the first go-around.

... said:

You can parry just by spamming parry. It's not even skill based. Just mash it fast. You'll look like your wiggling your sword

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Yeah I've figured that part out, was surprising. I time my parries and do fine with that, but when I just mash the button...I do fine that way too.

Got the hang of it. It really is almost musical in how it plays. Slash Lady Butterfly a few times until she starts blocking, then start tapping block because her counter is imminent. Once she hits you a few times you have an opening to attack again. Just need to remember how many "beats" each boss has in their set of attacks, and watch out for the red symbol. The red symbol, and countering it correctly, is now the only hard part.

I definitely see why some people say this game is the hardest From game at first, then the easiest once you get gud at it.

Beat Lady Butterfly. Really not bad at all once I figured out how the game works. Being able to mash parry actually kind of breaks the game. I think Wo Long was harder in the parry department. Still aiming to parry on-timing because it's a lot more fun.

Also downed Armored Knight (Roberrrrrrt), Long-Armed Giraffe Centipede or whatever it was called, and a few minibosses. Have about half of the skills learned already. Might go for some attack power once I get the mask, even though I know it's a bad idea if I'm gonna plat this (more grinding later for the last few skills).

Next up I've got either Folding Screen Monkeys or Genichiro as the options. Gonna try to get Mortal Draw before anything else.

Rajaah said:

Yeah I've figured that part out, was surprising. I time my parries and do fine with that, but when I just mash the button...I do fine that way too.

Got the hang of it. It really is almost musical in how it plays. Slash Lady Butterfly a few times until she starts blocking, then start tapping block because her counter is imminent. Once she hits you a few times you have an opening to attack again. Just need to remember how many "beats" each boss has in their set of attacks, and watch out for the red symbol. The red symbol, and countering it correctly, is now the only hard part.

I definitely see why some people say this game is the hardest From game at first, then the easiest once you get gud at it.

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Just FYI on the parry spamming, the amount of posture damage inflicted by the parry is proportional to the timing. I found that using the spam tactic worked well for attacks that were tough telegraphs, the easy ones I’d aim for a perfect parry.

Seananigans said:

Just FYI on the parry spamming, the amount of posture damage inflicted by the parry is proportional to the timing. I found that using the spam tactic worked well for attacks that were tough telegraphs, the easy ones I’d aim for a perfect parry.

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That's good to know, so my aiming for perfect parries isn't useless after all.

Defeated Genichiro Ashina on the first try. Does that mean I have the hang of the game now?

Then his second form beat me, unfortunately. I've never had a chance to try countering lightning yet so I just ran away when he did that. What did me in was running out of posture from his chain attacks. Very cool fight.

Spent way too much time on the game this weekend so I'm gonna try and pry myself away from it for a few days.

I think I've done pretty much everything there is to do (that I can access) without beating this guy. So I'll need to get that done. Feeling pretty confident after that first try so that's good.

Now I want to play Sekiro again damn.

Genchiro, Owl, and Ishina are the greatest boss fights From has ever produced.

Rajaah said:

Defeated Genichiro Ashina on the first try. Does that mean I have the hang of the game now?

Then his second form beat me, unfortunately. I've never had a chance to try countering lightning yet so I just ran away when he did that. What did me in was running out of posture from his chain attacks. Very cool fight.

Spent way too much time on the game this weekend so I'm gonna try and pry myself away from it for a few days.

I think I've done pretty much everything there is to do (that I can access) without beating this guy. So I'll need to get that done. Feeling pretty confident after that first try so that's good.

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Do the headless bosses?