Should you tip the waitress and how much thread

Rezz

Rezz

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Draegan_sl said:
This is 100% not true. Towards the end of my college day waiting life I became a corporate trainer and helped open up restaurants and train their opening day staff. I've seen a lot of people who were just not cut out to be waiting staff at least in places that see decent traffic. I guess anyone can be a server if the restaurant is never busy and you always only have 1 or 2 tables in any given hour.
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The threshold for it being wrong isn't really that far off, though. There is a much lower barrier to entry for being a passable waiter than there is to being passable at most non-fast food level jobs. Once you can hang with 3-4 tables at a time consistently for a few hours, even if you are mediocre you are probably going to make waaay more than any partially skilled entry level job. A mediocre cook has substantially more training/technical skill than a mediocre waiter, but gets paid roughly half as much or less in most cases. Is cooking a shitty industry? Yes! But is 20% of the cost of a meal for someone carrying food and not fucking an order up reasonable compensation? After cooking, waiting, bartending, and managing, no it is not.

And the reason that is true, is because you are considered a dick if you don't tip someone for just doing their job. So, the vast majority of people don't want to be dicks, thus a tip. It may not always be 20% or better (though, depending on pricing, you tend to get that more often at some places than others. If you aren't fine dining, having each item priced in the 12-15 dollar range means your wait staff pull 20%s without even trying on most sales) but you can almost always count on it. It sucks balls to put a shitload of effort into a table and have them drop an 8% tip on you, when you feel like you put in at least 15% or more. But waiters rarely remember the much larger compliment of tables that tipped 15% or better because that's just how society does shit these days.

It's the reason behind waiter complaints. If a waiter has a bad night, that means he only made 1.5 times what people putting in identical effort normally receive. A good night for a waiter means they hit 3-4 times that (and that is a low ball estimate) for hardly more effort. Good waiters pull in asstons, while mediocre ones only pull in half again as much as they are worth. Normal jobs don't have those kind of returns, and the concept of tipping in the USA is to blame.
 
D

Draegan_sl

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You're saying things like 1.5 times or 3-4 times or "assloads" of money. Put some numbers on that.

Cooks in your typical commercial restaurant can make anywhere from 12 to 16 bucks an hour. I worked as a cook on off nights. It's a tough job because it's fucking hot as balls, but it's honestly much easier than waiting tables on a busy night.

I've never cooked/prepped in fine dining so I can't compare it. My only experience cooking are with places where recipies and shit are formulaic.
 
Rezz

Rezz

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It is all comparative. A cook, working a busy night in a high end restaurant, is still going to make whatever cooks in that situation make. 16 seems high (do you live in SoCal or NYC?) but lets pretend that is average. A waiter, even a crappy one, is -not- pulling less than 10-15% average over a week. Period. So they are making minimum wage + whatever they make above that via tips. Since you have waited tables and understand the math, I know that you realize that 15% means nothing without giving a time dispersal. Was that 15% of 100 over 2 hours, or was it 15% of 50 over 20 minutes? There is a real difference when you have campers vs. in and outs. Turnover has a big impact on what those percents mean. Either way!

So a cook working 8 hours at 16 dollars an hour and taking the normal 33% tax cut, is making...85 bucks a night. We can say it is closer to 20 for people that have lots of deductions, but it is really 33% for most working folk. A waiter, working 4 hours (this is an average, as most wait staff do not work 40 hours a week and would be hard pressed to actually have business that requires them for those types of hours) is making 8 an hour (so 32 minus 11 putting them at 21) before tips. Depending entirely on the business and the customer, could be anywhere from 0% of 100 (not fine dining but a medium sized party) vs. 20% in a place with $40 a plate average (not really -that high- but still fine dining). Average table size is 3ish people, so while they may make zero off some tables, they could be making, on average, 21 a table, which when you extrapolate those numbers to average amounts (again, low balling, but most servers handle 3-4 tables at a time, lets use 3.) means they are making 63 an hour on top of their 8 an hour. So 71 an hour. But lets play with the math some more, since they have to pay taxes. So an average server (4 hour shift) with average income (60 dollars an hour) is taxed on that number (68x4 - (68x4 x .33)) is most likely making 45 an hour, or 3x (grouped bias) an hour vs. the cook making 16.

An asston would be monetary remuneration 3x or more. Which is what, on average, servers pull vs. cooks. And that does not include the standard night *which is different from an average night* where servers are not getting stiffed and generally making 15-20% of their bill size in revenue.

Edit: at the restaurant I manage, our cooks make 12.50 an hour, our senior cooks make 14.50 and our principal cook/head cook (his title changes depending on the owner's mood) makes 17.85. We are one of the highest paying restaurants in the area that isn't government funded (UCSB cooks, for example, make 17 an hour base with principals/seniors making 20 an hour. This is -not- average, it is union based and way above the norm) and even though I force my waitstaff to tip out 2.5% of sales to the cooks/bussers (most places use 1 or 1.5) the waiters are still pulling in vastly more money than the cooks. My strongest cook makes 14.50 an hour, and my strongest waiter is pulling in at least 65k a year. She works roughly 1/2 as many hours here as the strongest cook does. I've watched her work, she is -not- putting in 3x the effort that my best cook is.

There is a plateau when it comes to skill with cooking. Once you are able to dice shit at a certain speed and not hurt yourself, you are lumped into "average" in my book. This comes from having been a cook for 8 years (Yes, I am and always will be biased) where you come to a point that it is just more feasible to have more people vs. a more skilled one. Pay 20 an hour for Frank, or get 1.5x work done with two 10 an hour Pablos. It doesn't mean they are doing less work than someone waiting tables, it really comes down to how people view the food industry and the jobs included within it. There isn't a magical superior cook in my knowledge, there is average and applications thereof. The best cooks I know are skilled the same when it comes to actual shit they can do, but differ in their knowledge of how to do said things. Bechamels can be different (though I don't see how, as it is basically a description of a specific type of sauce...) so the application can be different depending on the cook. That stuff is learned on the job, at specific jobs. The simple knowledge about how a bechemal is made is the key part. Anyway!

The long and short is that waiters make more than cooks, and not for technical reasons. They make more because society says they make more, not because industry or common sense do.
 
Rezz

Rezz

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Goddamn I need to not day-drink on a random day off.

The above is correct, but worded pretty retardedly. Waiters make -at least- as much as a full time service person does, but they work half as much. And usually make 1.5x+ as much. Which equates to them making 3x as much which is an "asston" as far as I am concerned when it comes to value of work vs. difficulty/rarity of work. I would edit that mess above, but it appears I already did. Anyway.
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

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Draegan_sl said:
Ok like 500 posts in a row.

You just seem rustled in general. Tips typically average out over a given week assuming full time employment. You have bad nights and good nights. But by the end of the week I typically made the same amount of money. If a chick could make a shit ton more money with her tits hanging out, I had to bust my ass and take 10 extra tables in a shift. There are ways for non-big-titted people to make money too. Just got to work harder.

Your quality of service example doesn't really have any bearing. Of course you can receive shitty service in fine dining and get great service at Fridays. The cost of your meal is not indicative on the quality of server unfortunately. And typically, if you have a bad server in fine dining, then they are probably not going to be there very long. Which is a shame sense you expect good service when you are spending a lot of money. You should of commented on that to the manager.

If you feel guilty about tipping via performance that's your hangup. Telling you to get over it is the only thing I can say.

edit: Tipping at a place like Jersey Mikes is hilarious. I would never do that. The only food I tip on is if I sit down and eat.
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do fine dining restaurants with $100 per person pay their servers more than minimum wage?

Draegan_sl said:
That's a pretty stupid statement, but I'm not going to try to argue with you about it. There are so many examples of this being wrong it's stupid.
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You don't realize I am paraphrasing what many people say, and in no way do I agree with this myself, you should have read this in context -.-
 
D

Draegan_sl

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Rezz_sl said:
Goddamn I need to not day-drink on a random day off.

The above is correct, but worded pretty retardedly. Waiters make -at least- as much as a full time service person does, but they work half as much. And usually make 1.5x+ as much. Which equates to them making 3x as much which is an "asston" as far as I am concerned when it comes to value of work vs. difficulty/rarity of work. I would edit that mess above, but it appears I already did. Anyway.
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To keep things simple, you can't compare these things at all. In a large, busy restaurant you may have something like 20 waiters, 3 bus boys, 3 bartenders, 2 food runners, and maybe 5-8 cooks working the line. When you compare these people with amounts of work, who are you comparing? The highest paid cook to the most successful waiter? There are probably 3-5 waiters in that group that make top dollar. There are also 3-5 waiters who make jack shit and only work 4-6 hours a night and are happy to make $60 on a Sat night. There are also the hard working cook and hard working waiter who are there the entire shift and work with equal amounts of difficulty.

It all averages out in the end. A cook will work 30-40 hours a week at a steady rate. A waiter may work 5-6 shifts a week. They could work a lunch shift and only make $40. The can work a double (12 hours) and only make $120 for the whole day. It honestly varies from place to place. Your ratios are really fucked up for the average restaurant employee.

Not only that, a lot of restaurants require waiters to tip out to the rest of the house. In one commercial joint I worked in I had to tip out 1% of my sales to each of the bartenders, bussers and food runner. Essentially all those 20% tips are in reality 17% tips for the waiter. Some places actually have you tip out 10% of your tips and not 1% of your sales. Things vary place to place. In some fine dining establishments you have Maitre D's, head waiters, food runners etc. that you have to tip out so those 20% tips becomes 15% or lower.

And as an aside, it's harder to "avoid taxes" these days as most people pay with credit cards/debit cards these days and not cash. All your credit card tips are reported as is.

Quineloe_sl said:
do fine dining restaurants with $100 per person pay their servers more than minimum wage?
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Depends on the state and restaurant. For example in NJ, a waiter is paid $2.13 an hour where the minimum wage is $8.25. You won't often find a restaurant paying a waiter anything more. Same goes for NY too.
 
Alex

Alex

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There's a problem when the wook is calling other people cheapskates.
 
Big Phoenix

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Famm_sl said:
Draegan owning the fuck out of some cheapskates in this thread.
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I think you missed the part where he used to work in the food service industry. For how much this dumbass country loves to slobber Euorpe's cock and how high and mighty they are and we should be like them, no one wants to not tip like them.
 
Xequecal

Xequecal

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The tipping system functions as a way to circumvent laws about protected classes when it comes to hiring. When was the last time you had a black server at an upscale restaurant like Flemings? Why do you think the wait staff at even casual dining places like Outback are 90% young, attractive women? How do you think Hooters manages to have only female wait staff? It's because everyone else won't get shit for tips and thus can't make a living working there.

No, the problem is because it rewards based on whatever the fuck criteria John Q. Public decides is applicable that night,
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I hate to break it to you, but if you're working for a restaurant this is the only criteria that matters.
 
uncognito

uncognito

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This seems like a somewhat pointless debate. there is no convincing people who lack empathy and abound with ignorance, that people need tips to be able the pay their bills. all the selfish assholes who decide not to tip have every right to do that and will continue to do so until they die of food poisoning.
 
OneofOne

OneofOne

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uncognito_sl said:
This seems like a somewhat pointless debate. there is no convincing people who lack empathy and abound with ignorance, that people need tips to be able the pay their bills. all the selfish assholes who decide not to tip have every right to do that and will continue to do so until they die of food poisoning.
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No, what they NEED is a living wage. What they HAVE is this tip bullshit.
 
Eomer

Eomer

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uncognito_sl said:
This seems like a somewhat pointless debate. there is no convincing people who lack empathy and abound with ignorance, that people need tips to be able the pay their bills. all the selfish assholes who decide not to tip have every right to do that and will continue to do so until they die of food poisoning.
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It's not about "selfish assholes" not tipping so that servers can't "pay their bills". It's about customers being asked to subsidize an entire industry's wages. Only in North America (or in vacation places frequented by North Americans) is this system the norm. Every other continent instead pays their servers a decent wage, instead of expecting the customers to pull amounts out of thin air out of guilt.

I'd be thrilled if restaurants just raised their prices across the board by 15% or whatever, and paid their employees better. That would be just dandy with me.
 
Eomer

Eomer

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Draegan_sl said:
You'll have to increase food costs by far more than 15% to match a simple 15%-20% tip.
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Okay, thought about it more, and I'm still not quite seeing where you're coming from. If wages are roughly 1/3 of a restaurants costs, which appears to be the norm from a bit of Googling, that would indicate that raising prices across the board by 15% would be nearly enough to raise server wages by 50%. What am I missing here?
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

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Taxes, I think? The whole no wage and full tips is a giant tax evasion scheme anyways, start paying these people an actual salary, taxes start to come in as well
 
Titan_Atlas

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Rezz_sl said:
It is all comparative. A cook, working a busy night in a high end restaurant, is still going to make whatever cooks in that situation make. 16 seems high (do you live in SoCal or NYC?) but lets pretend that is average. A waiter, even a crappy one, is -not- pulling less than 10-15% average over a week. Period. So they are making minimum wage + whatever they make above that via tips. Since you have waited tables and understand the math, I know that you realize that 15% means nothing without giving a time dispersal. Was that 15% of 100 over 2 hours, or was it 15% of 50 over 20 minutes? There is a real difference when you have campers vs. in and outs. Turnover has a big impact on what those percents mean. Either way!

So a cook working 8 hours at 16 dollars an hour and taking the normal 33% tax cut, is making...85 bucks a night. We can say it is closer to 20 for people that have lots of deductions, but it is really 33% for most working folk. A waiter, working 4 hours (this is an average, as most wait staff do not work 40 hours a week and would be hard pressed to actually have business that requires them for those types of hours) is making 8 an hour (so 32 minus 11 putting them at 21) before tips. Depending entirely on the business and the customer, could be anywhere from 0% of 100 (not fine dining but a medium sized party) vs. 20% in a place with $40 a plate average (not really -that high- but still fine dining). Average table size is 3ish people, so while they may make zero off some tables, they could be making, on average, 21 a table, which when you extrapolate those numbers to average amounts (again, low balling, but most servers handle 3-4 tables at a time, lets use 3.) means they are making 63 an hour on top of their 8 an hour. So 71 an hour. But lets play with the math some more, since they have to pay taxes. So an average server (4 hour shift) with average income (60 dollars an hour) is taxed on that number (68x4 - (68x4 x .33)) is most likely making 45 an hour, or 3x (grouped bias) an hour vs. the cook making 16.

An asston would be monetary remuneration 3x or more. Which is what, on average, servers pull vs. cooks. And that does not include the standard night *which is different from an average night* where servers are not getting stiffed and generally making 15-20% of their bill size in revenue.

Edit: at the restaurant I manage, our cooks make 12.50 an hour, our senior cooks make 14.50 and our principal cook/head cook (his title changes depending on the owner's mood) makes 17.85. We are one of the highest paying restaurants in the area that isn't government funded (UCSB cooks, for example, make 17 an hour base with principals/seniors making 20 an hour. This is -not- average, it is union based and way above the norm) and even though I force my waitstaff to tip out 2.5% of sales to the cooks/bussers (most places use 1 or 1.5) the waiters are still pulling in vastly more money than the cooks. My strongest cook makes 14.50 an hour, and my strongest waiter is pulling in at least 65k a year. She works roughly 1/2 as many hours here as the strongest cook does. I've watched her work, she is -not- putting in 3x the effort that my best cook is.

There is a plateau when it comes to skill with cooking. Once you are able to dice shit at a certain speed and not hurt yourself, you are lumped into "average" in my book. This comes from having been a cook for 8 years (Yes, I am and always will be biased) where you come to a point that it is just more feasible to have more people vs. a more skilled one. Pay 20 an hour for Frank, or get 1.5x work done with two 10 an hour Pablos. It doesn't mean they are doing less work than someone waiting tables, it really comes down to how people view the food industry and the jobs included within it. There isn't a magical superior cook in my knowledge, there is average and applications thereof. The best cooks I know are skilled the same when it comes to actual shit they can do, but differ in their knowledge of how to do said things. Bechamels can be different (though I don't see how, as it is basically a description of a specific type of sauce...) so the application can be different depending on the cook. That stuff is learned on the job, at specific jobs. The simple knowledge about how a bechemal is made is the key part. Anyway!

The long and short is that waiters make more than cooks, and not for technical reasons. They make more because society says they make more, not because industry or common sense do.
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Just want to pipe in on these numbers they are a bit off. I am a waiter professionally and you kinda drastically overestimate certain numbers to fit your point. So to generalize some numbers on the front end of the house.\

- Most waiters make around 35-40k a yr. I have made in this range for the last 6-8 years and have many, many friends in the industry who make the same. This is in fine dining btw.
- Average shift is 6 hours, in at around 4pm out around 10pm. 5-6 shifts a week roughly 32-37 hours.
- no vacation or sick days. If you are sick you lose money, if you take a trip you lose money. Oh yeah no healthcare or retirement or 401k contributions.

One last thing on the topic of front of house vs back of house. The cooks don't have to interact with people outside of the kitchen, period. Seeing how jaded people are on this board of each other, how about everynight over and over having to take shit from the mass of stupidity that is most americans. Don't get me wrong I have a great night talking to many people, but you do regularly get shit on by rude, stupid, insensitive people who think a monkey can do your job. For those who have never done it, to be good at it takes an enormous amount of mental organization and decision making on the fly. It is worth every penny of your 15% tip. To Eomer, why is it different that you put the 15% on the table at the end with a choice to judge the merit of the service you received and adjust accordingly vs. the restaurant tacking it on in food costs? Same money, one rewards hard work and ability presumably the other doesn't?
 
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