Shroud Of The Avatar - Shit Went Persistent

Gecko_sl said:

How do you determine the scammer from the legit project one should support? The only way one can really determine anything is via name recognition, and in my opinion the guys we know with the big bucks are the least deserving of the lot on KS. It's not a big risk to spend 20 bucks, but it's a waste of money, in my opinion.

When kickstarter starts selling actual stakes in companies with complete transparency regarding their project management, expenditures, and with actual contracts for said paid services then I'll consider them a valid entity instead of a simple method to boondoggle people out of dinero with no real accountability.

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Well first off, remember it's an investment. All investments have a risk of zero return. Then look a the product and what they promising. If it sounds to good to be true then it usually is. Check to see if the person has a history of some sort that instills confidence or not.

For webcomics looking for money to print existing artwork this is pretty easy. They already went through the work of creating the pages and artistic types tend to get gratification from seeing their work in print, so it is a pretty good bet they will follow through. Where as somebody promising super Star Trek glasses that can do supercomputer visuals and still look stylish is pretty far out there on the believability scale.

Computer gaming projects are in between. It really depends on the person (or company) asking for money and if you actually believe they can follow through. Everyone has to decide that for themselves. You can check the various forums to see if others think it is legit but that isn't always reliable. People are herd animals and tend to follow even if it means jumping off a cliff.

And finally, never give more than you can comfortably lose. Because if the project is a failure (or outright scam) then there is almost zero chance of getting that money back if you use kickstarter. And if you are one of those people fortunate enough to actually have thousands to invest then NEVER do it through kickstarter. The more traditional investment route is safer and you would get a better return.

Sean_sl said:

You're completely oblivious to the industry if you think any good studio can just get their own funding for any type of game. It just does not work that way and the people with big money will only fund certain things now no matter how good said studio is.

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Rhode Island disagrees with you.

Gecko_sl said:

Rhode Island disagrees with you.

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And that was an MMO and people thought they could make fuckloads of money off of MMOs.

Fact is, it's hard as fuck to find anyone to publish things like old school Isometric RPGs and Space Sims anymore. Those games I listed would not have been made if Kickstarter wasn't there, because people with money aren't going to fund them. They are not something that pulls in tons of money.

If you're not happy that Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, a spiritual sequel to Planescape:Torment, and Obsidian's Project Eternity are being made because of Kickstarter then I think you're crazy.

Gecko_sl said:

Rhode Island disagrees with you.

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You can bet that money source has dried up.

Sean is right about the funding issues. That is why the 2d rpg guys had to use kickstarter. Big investors want big returns and they have a lot of options that can give them that. Niche games don't excite investors with fat wallets.

Sean_sl said:

Fact is, it's hard as fuck to find anyone to publish things like old school Isometric RPGs and Space Sims anymore. Those games I listed would not have been made if Kickstarter wasn't there, because people with money aren't going to fund them. They are not something that pulls in tons of money.

If you're not happy that Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, a spiritual sequel to Planescape:Torment, and Obsidian's Project Eternity are being made because of Kickstarter then I think you're crazy.

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You have a good point, but it doesn't change the nature of kickstarter being a flawed and poor mechanism for 'investment'. As I mentioned above I'd prefer to see crowdsourcing actually BE considered an investment instead of a preorder, where those who contribute actually get a stake and with the companies receiving the funds being required to report and act just like publicly traded companies.

Erronius_sl said:

First, there isn't even any guarantee that your KS game will be completed. Curiously enough you may have more legal recourse if it isn't completed, than if it is completed and is horrible. If you KS a game and it is terrible, you're just going to have to be happy with it. Especially if people cannot argue an implied warranty of merchantability due to the position (Kickstarter's and the Projects themselves) that you aren't BUYING a game, that you are DONATING or PLEDGING. Given how difficult it would be to recoup your monies from a PURCHASED game, think you stand a chance with Kickstarter? And with the way that Kickstarter is structured, Kickstarter itself will not get involved (they have stated many times that they simply match pledges with projects, and that it is up to the people who pledge to pursue recourse) so it comes down to you and the project. Oh, and most of these people incorporate, so GL.

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Well this is where the consumer cannot be a total retard. All of the morons who preordered Colonial Marines (or the even bigger morons who said it was a good game) spent $60 on it. I can get 2-3 games for the same price or nearly the same price on KS that could be way better than this.

If I lose $20 I wouldn't even notice, I would actually be more upset about the game not being awesome or being completed. Though who is to say that would even happen? I've spent around $200 backing several games on KS, all that should get me tons of hours of gameplay each. Should I shy away from a few hundred to several hundred hours of gameplay because maybe 1 of those games will fail? Okay, instead of doing that I'll spent $60 on Tomb Raider. A game that has good reviews, but what.. 12 hours of gameplay unless I replay it? For $60 that is a ripoff. I would rather take my chances with the big name games on KS for $20-30 like Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Shadowrun: Returns, Torment, Star Citizen, etc.

Investing is always risk vs reward and on KS the rewards vary a lot and from person to person. That web comic KS looked terrible to me, but some people obviously want to support that guy. Now if you're a big spender, then I can see why everyone is up in arms. I would never spend a couple hundred dollars on a KS game, but $20/30/40 here or there is not going to hurt anyone.

Richard Garriot will get his support regardless from his fans(whomever they are), the bs he spews, and the effort he puts into promoting his game even though it'll be shit. Don't blame KS, blame people for supporting the idiots (I'm looking at you EA).

I think having Project Eternity, Shadowrun, a new Torment, and the Double Fine game is worth having a few scammers.

I have no interest in buying this game, I am curious though.

Can you still purchase a game through kickstarter after its been fully released? That way you can wait and see on the reviews instead of pledging to a campaign that's already reached it's goal.

It's hard not to at least throw 20 bucks down to see the shitshow unfold, but at the same time, it's hard to justify giving RG money.

DeLLy_sl said:

Okay, instead of doing that I'll spent $60 on Tomb Raider. A game that has good reviews, but what.. 12 hours of gameplay unless I replay it? For $60 that is a ripoff. I would rather take my chances with the big name games on KS for $20-30 like Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Shadowrun: Returns, Torment, Star Citizen, etc.

Investing is always risk vs reward and on KS the rewards vary a lot and from person to person. That web comic KS looked terrible to me, but some people obviously want to support that guy. Now if you're a big spender, then I can see why everyone is up in arms. I would never spend a couple hundred dollars on a KS game, but $20/30/40 here or there is not going to hurt anyone.

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You're picking an example to suit your point. That's fine, but you could spend the $60 on Starcraft 2 instead and be set for a decade until they release SC3. just an example from the opposite end of replayability. Theres plent of middle ground also. (and for the record I enjoyed the new tomb raider and didnt feel ripped off for buying it).

You are right that $20 here and there isnt going to hurt anyone that actually holds a job, and its not like someone is supporting all the kickstarters. From the thread here it seems like most that did so threw money after up to five. Thats $100 or so? About 3 games or about 1-2 evenings out depending on what you do. Hell I dont even follow the one I donated to (Star citizen) because its so far off still, I'll read up on it when and if the beta starts.

And finally, if you get the web comic in hardcover for supporting I believe it safe to assume that most went for the donation level to get that, because they would buy it for that price anyway. Any outliers that fork over $1000 for him to make 10 new strips a year obviously dont need the money.

The one thing that would make me consider donating to Star Citizen is remembering how Microsoft changed Freelancer and threw Chris Roberts out the door. The one game I want most to be developed is a real successor for Privateer. They are hyping Star Citizen to be that game. That said, even with Roberts running the show, I have no faith this game will be at all good. I can empathize somewhat with Sean's point as the games he is referencing are niche products that won't be selling a lot, but that wouldn't be the case for a space sim like this. The issue I see is control.

Mr Creed_sl said:

You're picking an example to suit your point.

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I did, but the problem is there are many examples that could suit the point I'm making. I don't care for RTS games anymore, but there are hundred of hours of gaming to get out of SC2 or games like Dota, Battlefield, Modern Warfare, etcetc. The thing is most games that are being marketed on KS are not large RTS or MMO based games (most, not all).

The reason KS is doing so well and that indie/old franchises are being funded is because of all the bitching and moaning the gamers (us included) have been doing about the prices of games, the quality of games, the length of games and so on. Sure KS isn't perfect, but the games being made are what people on Rerolled/FOH have been wanting for years.

I'm still baffled that EA is still being supported more than Richard Garriot or even that lazy web comic guy.

Because nerds are retarded and many of them have too much money with no idea what to do with it but buy the promise of a video game 3 years from now and scantily clad cartoon girl statues.

bixxby_sl said:

Because nerds are retarded and many of them have too much money with no idea what to do with it but buy the promise of a video game 3 years from now and scantily clad cartoon girl statues.

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When you put it that way, where do I sign up?

Dick Garriot should take a page out of Kevin Smith's book:

Kevin Smith_sl said:

As for funding the flick - we nearly Kickstarted the budget back in November (talked about at great length here:http://smodcast.com/episodes/giant-s...ii-audience-0/). But now I'm feeling like that's not fair to real indie filmmakers who need the help. Unlike back when I made CLERKS in '91, I've GOT access to money now - so I should use that money and not suck any loot out of the crowd-funding marketplace that might otherwise go to some first-timer who can really use it. So if I can get away with it, I'm gonna try to pay for CLERKS III myself. As much as I love the crowd-funding model (and almost did it myself in early 2009 with RedStateGreen.com), that's an advancement in indie film that belongs to the next generation of artists. I started on my own dime, and if I'm allowed, I should finish on my own dime.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...s_thinking_of/