So, Hep C cured.

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
LOL, that statement makes 0 sense. Statements like these make it absolutely clear you don't know anything about business. The failures are factored into the ROI, retard.

Investors dont invest into drugs one by one - they invest into companies, and the share value (though related to drug performance) is not pegged to the revenue from a particular drug.

How are you this dumb?

I'm fairly sure the people that paid 11 billion for the company that made this drug bought it for one reason only that being that drug.

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
Now answer how do you define market rate for a companies profit? How does this Drug compare profit margin wise to say Windows & operating system? In regards to profit margin for capital invested?

1. a windows OS is not required for me to survive, a drug might be.

2. Net revenue - net expenses = profit

calculate expenses out to 10 years

adjust the annual net profit to fund those expenses plus extra cash to provide cushion for extra expenses

use that to establish a maximum price you can charge per drug.

do you think all the bottled water companies in america can just get together and charge $10 for a bottle of water if they wanted to? price gouging laws exist for a reason, stupid.

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Dabamf_sl said:
They also aren't a monopoly. There are other drug companies and nothing is stopping them from making a cure too, except, you know, its difficult. A monopoly would be if they are the only drug company in the world and even after patent expiration no one else can make it.

Do you guys have even a high school education?

of course they are a monopoly. if there is only 1 oil company in the world, your argument cant be, "well if the other 7 billion people want to go drill for oil, they can!! its not a monopoly!!" thats just pants on the head retarded.

here's a definition for you to review, after you go back and finish your GED: A monopoly (from Greek monos ????? (alone or single) + polein ?????? (to sell)) exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
I'm fairly sure the people that paid 11 billion for the company that made this drug bought it for one reason only that being that drug.

Oh you're talking about someone buying a company outright, not shares.

Alright, which company is that?

Lets get into specifics.

Xequecal · Jan 8, 2014

Heylel_sl said:
So 84k per American is a fair price, but getting the treatment into the high hundreds / low thousands range for the developing world is still profitable. Hm.

Manufacturing the pills costs nothing, they just need to recoup their R&D costs. So yeah, once Americans pay for the R&D the third world can definitely get it for cheap.

BoldW · Jan 8, 2014

Dabamf_sl said:
They own it. It's theirs. If they want to charge $1,000,000,000,000,000 per pill so no one buys it and then they write the formula on a piece of paper, destroy any record elsewhere, then burn that paper in front of every hep c person in the world, that's their right. That's private property and is the foundation of a society that makes great things like this. You can't have your cake and eat it too. This is reality, not your faggot fantasy land.

They also aren't a monopoly. There are other drug companies and nothing is stopping them from making a cure too, except, you know, its difficult. A monopoly would be if they are the only drug company in the world and even after patent expiration no one else can make it.

Do you guys have even a high school education?

So you were rooting for the guys supplying air to the three-tittied martians in Total Recall? That kind of company is A-OK with you? That's what you're advocating. Hey, if someone can bottle up all the air, well, I guess we'll have to pay for it or die. Oh Well.

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
1. a windows OS is not required for me to survive, a drug might be.

2. Net revenue - net expenses = profit

calculate expenses out to 10 years

adjust the annual net profit to fund those expenses plus extra cash to provide cushion for extra expenses

use that to establish a maximum price you can charge per drug.

do you think all the bottled water companies in america can just get together and charge $10 for a bottle of water if they wanted to? price gouging laws exist for a reason, stupid.

I see no reason why ether you are anyone else should be able to tell someone else how much profit they can make on something they own.

How are they price gouging when the service they provide will save money for society if it is used?

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
I see no reason why ether you are anyone else should be able to tell someone else how much profit they can make on something they own.

How are they price gouging when the service they provide will save money for society if it is used?

because the price vastly exceeds the actual investment into the product and the only reason a person would consider paying that outrageously inflated price is because the alternative is to die from the disease. in effect, the only reason you'd make that money is because the "customer" has no other choice. for someone who is such a fan of the free market, how is that a "free" market?

here's another definition you might want to familiarize yourself once you finish up that GED:Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[2]

So do you think all bottled water companies can get together in America and charge $10 per 20 oz bottle of water??

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
Oh you're talking about someone buying a company outright, not shares.

Alright, which company is that?

Lets get into specifics.

Go back to first post in this thread and read click on the link.

She notes that Gilead paid more than $11 billion to acquire a smaller company that developed sofosbuvir.

BoldW · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
I see no reason why ether you are anyone else should be able to tell someone else how much profit they can make on something they own.

How are they price gouging when the service they provide will save money for society if it is used?

Because only rich people can afford it. If it's covered by insurance, then everyone ends up paying for it and rates increase by the magnititude of their, and every other pharma's, greed. In the end this model does not save money on healthcare. Instead of spending 30% of our income on healthcare, it goes up to 35% (arbitrarily chosen increase). People still get to live longer, but we all end up paying 5% more, not saving. Want to save costs? Make the price reasonable.

Xequecal · Jan 8, 2014

Seriously though, while the profit margins of pharma companies are absurdly high compared to most other companies, they're still in the realm of 20-25%. You can't just lop a zero off the price of all their new products and expect them to remain in business.

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
Go back to first post in this thread and read click on the link.

She notes that Gilead paid more than $11 billion to acquire a smaller company that developed sofosbuvir.

Oh cool, my example used $12 billion dollars that already factored in a ridiculously high 100% profit margin. My example also estimated that the cost per person would be at about $80.

Tell me again what costs are being recouped by charging $84,000 for 12 weeks of treatment and $168,000 for the 24 weeks, when $80 per treatment is the point at which not only did the company recoup its investment, but also made a 100% profit on its investment?

BoldW · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
Go back to first post in this thread and read click on the link.

She notes that Gilead paid more than $11 billion to acquire a smaller company that developed sofosbuvir.

divided by 150 milliom people infected with hep C...a little under 75 bucks for total treatment per to break even...that doesn't include future sales.

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
because the price vastly exceeds the actual investment into the product and the only reason a person would consider paying that outrageously inflated price is because the alternative is to die from the disease. in effect, the only reason you'd make that money is because the "customer" has no other choice. for someone who is such a fan of the free market, how is that a "free" market?

here's another definition you might want to familiarize yourself once you finish up that GED:Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[2]

So do you think all bottled water companies can get together in America and charge $10 per 20 oz bottle of water??

No the government and health insurance industry will pay the cost because they will save more money by paying for it then they will by not. That is the rational for the high price aka the real world. Not your fantasy world where everyone with Hep C will have to cough up 84k are die. Current cost of Hep C are allreay carried by private healthcare and government not fully only by those with Hep C.

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

BoldW_sl said:
divided by 150 milliom people infected with hep C...a little under 75 bucks for total treatment per to break even...that doesn't include future sales.

Why the fuck would you want to spend 11 billion to just fucking break even?

Siddar · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
Oh cool, my example used $12 billion dollars that already factored in a ridiculously high 100% profit margin. My example also estimated that the cost per person would be at about $80.

Tell me again what costs are being recouped by charging $84,000 for 12 weeks of treatment and $168,000 for the 24 weeks, when $80 per treatment is the point at which not only did the company recoup its investment, but also made a 100% profit on its investment?

Your 12 billion number is less than a 10% ROI dumbass. 100% would be 22 billion.

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
No the government and health insurance industry will pay the cost because they will save more money by paying for it then they will by not. That is the rational for the high price aka the real world. Not your fantasy world where everyone with Hep C will have to cough up 84k are die. Current cost of Hep C are allreay carried by private healthcare and government not fully only by those with Hep C.

So the rationale is to jack up prices by 99,990% (this is an actual percentage increase from $80 to $80,000) because "fuck it, the government and insurance will pay it"? That's your rationale? To keep further breaking an already broken system?

LOL, you are such a retard.

Question for you: So do you think all bottled water companies can get together in America and charge $10 per 20 oz bottle of water??

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
Your 12 billion number is less than a 10% ROI dumbass. 100% would be 22 billion.

If you actually read what i wrote, I used 5 billion as a baseline - according to studies thats the average cost of developing a successful new drug, and I rounded it up to 6 billion for easier math. Which became 12 billion when I added a 100% profit onto 6 billion in R&D costs.

God, you are fucking stupid

Xequecal · Jan 8, 2014

Araysar_sl said:
Oh cool, my example used $12 billion dollars that already factored in a ridiculously high 100% profit margin. My example also estimated that the cost per person would be at about $80.

Tell me again what costs are being recouped by charging $84,000 for 12 weeks of treatment and $168,000 for the 24 weeks, when $80 per treatment is the point at which not only did the company recoup its investment, but also made a 100% profit on its investment?

Because the rest of the world won't pay $80. The only thing preventing Americans from getting the treatment course for $5 is our patent and copyright laws, which don't apply anywhere else. Europe's socialized health care systems will offer this company the manufacturing cost plus 50%. They wont give them a price that lets them recoup development costs. They don't have to. If they don't take the deal, then Europe will just rip off the formula and make it themselves. Once you have the actual pills in hand they're more trivially copiable than software. China will definitely just straight up rip the formula off, and probably will sell the pills super cheap to everyone else if we don't beat that price.

Its not fair, but its reality. Now, I don't think big pharma is totally on the level at all, as no industry makes 25% profit fairly, but claiming they're gouging at 10x-100x of a fair price is absurd.

Araysar · Jan 8, 2014

Siddar_sl said:
Why the fuck would you want to spend 11 billion to just fucking break even?

Lets say they double that and charge $150 for treatment instead of $75.

Why do they want to charge $80K-$150K for a treatment that would cost $150 and still net them over 10 billion in profit?

Lets say we let them charge 80K for treatment, do you think they should drop their prices once they recoup their investment?

So, Hep C cured.

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