Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

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Draegan_sl

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Lithose_sl said:
I've conceded I've been wrong several times on this board. I'm wrong when I'm wrong, though. In this case, you can literally watch the making of videos and see this stuff is in them (George asking for flashier saber styles because he wants to show Jedi in their "prime"--this statement is specifically in the making of Phantom Menace). Then you can see tons of interviews from Nick Gillard (The person who designed the fights) where he flat out says he worked in a rapier style to make it flashier (I linked one). I'm not sure what evidence you guys want. But if shit posting is pointing to sources, and links, while someone else says "nuh uh"--thenlol.

Also, it's four months until release--I'm discussingthematicfailures in Star Wars movies in between any other content that is coming out. I'm really curious as to why this is an issue? If the posts were drowning out relevant release information, meh; maybe I could see some ire, but this seems like a silly branding of shit posting. (You know, discussing thematic elements in amovie series...in a movie thread about that film. You're like an old man angry young people are talking around his lawn, Draeg :p./)
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Your whole argument is silly though. It's Star Wars, and things happen because of reasons. Why are we trying to compare fighting styles of earthly people to humanoids with magical powers and laser swords? Then on top of that you're attempting to add weight to your argument because of silly things George Lucas said and wanted to make things shinier on screen.

The whole argument or debate is just dumb and doesn't deserve the attention you're giving it which is why I said Nuh uh. You're basically last-wording like hodj loves to do which is a version of shitposting.

I don't care if you continue attempting to argue this whole duelist vs. whatever argument you have going on. Keep on keeping on man if you're having fun. I'm not here to stop you or anything with threats of infraction. But I am calling you out for engaging in an inane debate. Keep going though, I'll just scroll through to see if there are any E7 updates along the way.
 
Raes

Raes

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Gavinmad_sl said:
The best part of this stupid argument is the fact that nobody is paying attention to the important part of Lithose' posts, where he says that he thinks the fight choreography in the originals was better. And he isn't wrong. If the blades were weightless, lightsaber fighting should have evolved to be more like foil fencing. And it's clear from the effortless way Anakin flips two sabers around or the way Dooku handles his saber that the blades are weightless in the prequels. I don't remember most of the saber duels in Clone Wars, but I know when Pre Vizsla fought Obi-Wan, it was somewhere in between the prequels and the originals. Vizsla was moving the blade around pretty easily, but they were definitely fighting more in more of a broadsword style.

The most important part out of all of this is the fact that the prequels are bad and we should forget them.
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The star wars wikia page on Form 2 gives a pretty good in depth explanation of the strengths and weaknesses of using quick/light attacks in a lightsaber duel. Also, one of the main factors that separates rapier/foils and lightsabers is the fact that lightsaber blades are unbreakable, and the hilt isn't. This would effect how such fighting forms would evolve. Anyways, that's the last I'll say on the matter. Carry on.
 
Royal

Royal

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Xeldar

Xeldar

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The different styles of lightsaber fighting.... something that was never supposed to be completely serious, became too serious.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Draegan_sl said:
Your whole argument is silly though. It's Star Wars, and things happen because of reasons. Why are we trying to compare fighting styles of earthly people to humanoids with magical powers and laser swords? Then on top of that you're attempting to add weight to your argument because of silly things George Lucas said and wanted to make things shinier on screen.

.
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Holy shit, how does Gavin see what I'm saying and you can't? I don't give adamnabout some technical (Real life technical or Wookiepedia technical) reason why it should look one way or another--I gave Dooku as an example because he broke the originalTHEME. My entire posts have been about how one type of choreographyLOOKS BETTERand comparing it to realism is silly, because theoriginal fights weren't realistic, but theylooked a lot better(And again, I used Dooku as an example of something in the prequels that actually looked MORE realistic but actually made the whole thing look worse within the film; which is why I pointed to him, because his technical style was probably closer to what you'd see, and yet his fights sucked ass and were silly, because realism doesn't fucking matter, but prequels weren't bad because they "lacked realism", that was the point, they were bad because they didn't make sensein their own universe.).

Fuckme. Raes came in with the tangent about fencing in RL, which I responded to, but the entire premise has been how the movie LOOKS...And the argument is that in a movie where you see a character do flips and shit with a magic light sword while he twirls it in one hand and waves it around, and then clubs it down like it's some cave-man weapon? Makes it all look really silly.

The argument has always been about the theme, how it LOOKS ON SCREEN. Why the old fights without the flash were better. Because they had a contained theme. They might not have been realistic, but they were grounded in their own universe. You guys tried to say "I could see using two handed to do X or Y"--which I responded to with realism because you were obviously trying to use real life to justify the mechanics. The originals and kendo style fighting is no more real than the prequels; but in the originals? Everything was the same theme, and the big blocks and slow attacks made it feel and look better. Understand? Having the light saber act like a broad sword OR rapier is fine; both thematic styles have different strengths...Mixing them both makes it look cartoonish and silly. (Because you go from a weapon that looks like it has weight and heft, to a weapon that looks light as a feather.)
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Gavinmad_sl said:
I don't think there are enough words in the English language to adequately convey how much I resent this.
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Sorry, my bad Gav, that sounded a lot worse than I meant...I meant it in that you usually like to fuck with people (A little), and even you stopped for a moment to point out what I was saying; while Draeg is usually the absolute straight man and he seems to be trolling me.
 
LachiusTZ

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Fuck, I am already regretting this post, but...

Lith, you are comparing:

Floppy, non lethal blades, wielded by normal humans, used in a sport of quick points...

To:

Lethal rigid plasma blades wielded by Jedi with super natural speed and quasi future sight.

Even If everything else is the same, lethality alone would necessitate learning blocks.

Fuck.
 
Foggy

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The disconnect is you are mistaking realistic and what the lay person thinks is realistic. The lay person expects Braveheart and gladiator in their sword fights. Swords need to clash because it is badass. The originals weren't better because they had a theme; they were better because that is how most people naturally think you fight with a sword. It was more realistic to the average person. As they moved to more expressive dance and fencing it just becomes "wtf is this shit?" I just watched some fencing videos and the entire time wondered what those morons were doing.

Regardless, fencing would be a stupid way to use a lightsaber. Both users would die/get hit every time.
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

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Lightsaber combat only makes sense if you ignore the prequels and assume that despite being nothing more than a plasma projection encased in a containment field, lightsaber blades are still weighted roughly like a solid melee weapon would be. In which case the saber duels in the originals are fine. If saber blades are actually effectively weightless, which they clearly are in the prequels, it makes absolutely no sense to be fighting with normal swings and chops because you're not delivering any additional power by swinging. If the blades weigh nothing compared to the hilt, it makes absolute logical sense that saber duels should have evolved into something more closely resembling foil or saber fencing, because that is how you fight with a weapon that is weighted like that. The 'gyroscopic effect' thing is nonsense. If the blade weighs nothing, then there is no momentum interfering when you try to control a swing. That means you can control the weapon extremely precisely with nothing more than wrist movements...like they do in fencing.

And no, both users would not die every time.

But for the sake of not looking dumb, lightsabers should just be assumed to be weighted like a normal melee weapon and saber duels should be fought like edge to edge broadsword fights like they are in the originals.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Foggy_sl said:
The disconnect is you are mistaking realistic and what the lay person thinks is realistic. The lay person expects Braveheart and gladiator in their sword fights. Swords need to clash because it is badass. The originals weren't better because they had a theme; they were better because that is how most people naturally think you fight with a sword. It was more realistic to the average person. As they moved to more expressive dance and fencing it just becomes "wtf is this shit?" I just watched some fencing videos and the entire time wondered what those morons were doing.

Regardless, fencing would be a stupid way to use a lightsaber. Both users would die/get hit every time.
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Lithose_sl said:
The originals and kendo style fighting is no more real than the prequels; but in the originals? Everything was the same theme, and the big blocks and slow attacks made it feel and look better.
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I know at this point I'm being trolled, but whatever. Don't retread shit I say and make it seem like I'm wrong.

Also, Lash, you should feel bad--I don't know how many times I've said realism doesn't matter. Read what I've written about why sword locks and strong blocking never really happened, even in historical accounts of rapier fighting (IE not just scoring points). But regardless, in the movies--it doesn't matter. What matters ishow it looks; and having someone swing a weapon around in one hand and do flips and shit, and then the next scene club it down like its a broad swordfeels off(Because it IS off, it's retarded, you'd never do that with such a light deadly weapon)...How is this controversial? Like how is this a fucking debate? Are you guys arguing the prequelslooked better? Because that is the point you're trying to make.

Gavinmad_sl said:
If the blades weigh nothing compared to the hilt, it makes absolute logical sense that saber duels should have evolved into something more closely resembling foil or saber fencing, because that is how you fight with a weapon that is weighted like that. The 'gyroscopic effect' thing is nonsense. If the blade weighs nothing, then there is no momentum interfering when you try to control a swing. That means you can control the weapon extremely precisely with nothing more than wrist movements...like they do in fencing..
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Exactly. A light blade, if you've ever held one? Has wildly precisely control--you can easily change your swing mid thrust and land just about anywhere else. If someone is trying to do a "stationary block"; you can easily just skirt your blade up past theirs and hit them (It's why real sword fights only had parries, not blocks). In any case, this is why the mixing of the thematic styles looked bad to me; which was my point. I liked the heavy, broad swings, they were better from a visual stand point. Mixing the two made them both seem out of place--either you have a light, quick weapon or a heavy one.
 
Drakain

Drakain

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Think of it like a wooden dowel that won't snap, splinter. It is effectively weightless when compared to a metal sword.
 
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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Lithose_sl said:
Holy shit, how does Gavin see what I'm saying and you can't? I don't give adamnabout some technical (Real life technical or Wookiepedia technical) reason why it should look one way or another--I gave Dooku as an example because he broke the originalTHEME. My entire posts have been about how one type of choreographyLOOKS BETTERand comparing it to realism is silly, because theoriginal fights weren't realistic, but theylooked a lot better(And again, I used Dooku as an example of something in the prequels that actually looked MORE realistic but actually made the whole thing look worse within the film; which is why I pointed to him, because his technical style was probably closer to what you'd see, and yet his fights sucked ass and were silly, because realism doesn't fucking matter, but prequels weren't bad because they "lacked realism", that was the point, they were bad because they didn't make sensein their own universe.).

Fuckme. Raes came in with the tangent about fencing in RL, which I responded to, but the entire premise has been how the movie LOOKS...And the argument is that in a movie where you see a character do flips and shit with a magic light sword while he twirls it in one hand and waves it around, and then clubs it down like it's some cave-man weapon? Makes it all look really silly.

The argument has always been about the theme, how it LOOKS ON SCREEN. Why the old fights without the flash were better. Because they had a contained theme. They might not have been realistic, but they were grounded in their own universe. You guys tried to say "I could see using two handed to do X or Y"--which I responded to with realism because you were obviously trying to use real life to justify the mechanics. The originals and kendo style fighting is no more real than the prequels; but in the originals? Everything was the same theme, and the big blocks and slow attacks made it feel and look better. Understand? Having the light saber act like a broad sword OR rapier is fine; both thematic styles have different strengths...Mixing them both makes it look cartoonish and silly. (Because you go from a weapon that looks like it has weight and heft, to a weapon that looks light as a feather.)
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Nah Lithose. Nah.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Sterling_sl said:
I think a lot of people are confusing blocking and parrying.
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I think so too. Saying blocking doesn't happen doesn't mean swords never cross--parrying crosses blades. The thing is (For those who don't know), a parry is quasi offensive; you are hitting their sword. You do this specifically to prevent them from redirecting their swing at the last second. Blocking is the big heavy "hold your sword stationary" to "stop" your opponents swing--that usually didn't happen with any weapon, but especially not light ones, because it was too easy for them to change mid swing and cut you.

But in movies? The whole heavy blocking and dramatic sword catching looks great...and it feels better with the heavier style of broad-sword fighting, in my opinion. The flares and gymnastics made it just feel awkward.

Nester_sl said:
A lot of people think this argument is stupid and pointless shitposing.
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Guys, if new shit gets posted; I won't post about this...this is a silly but fun argument, that's all. I geek out about this because I began fencing a couple years ago, and got into the nerdy sword fight recreation culture then too. In addition, I like stars wars. This thread is four months from being useful, because the film has a long ways to go--so really, who cares if there is a useless conversation in it right now? Just, you know, scroll past. The point of a message board is to talk, and since there is nothing about the movie, talking about the film series, even in a highly nerdy way? Seems okay to me; if it's not you cup of tea, don't read it. And when real news gets posted, I'll drop it.

Not every useless post is shit posting. Shit posting drops turds through pertinent conversations--this is not that. Unless you were hoping to discuss something Nester?
 
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