The Benefits of Socialism

Ratina · Sep 6, 2017

Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

Shmoopy · Sep 6, 2017

Palum said:
Rules of the thread are that each person only gets one post per week. Rationing posts so everyone gets the same is only fair, da comrade?

Also, you must give all posts the same amount of likes.

Leadsalad · Sep 6, 2017

Ratina said:
Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

Are you going to magic wand away human nature and a large percentage of the population's desire to do absolutely fuck all in the face of free shit and be a drain on the rest AS WELL AS eliminating the other half of us who once in some sort of power become corrupted absolutely?

What are the checks and balances on this magical "true" socialism that has never been tried before?

Picasso3 · Sep 6, 2017

Good post. I don't think there's anyone here that will approach it because it's an uncomfortable truth.

Seeing as how I agree with it and I still want to post i'm going to attempt to predict what is going to happen next:
Lithose will dive into the first SJW rabbithole and post the sally boynton brown video with 13 paragraphs about the liberal condition and where it all went so wrong and how it's unfortunate dems forced everyone's hand to go retarded
Mario will make a cuck joke
Angrygerbil will link to a book he just read and ramble off using only words he's searched in a thesaurus
Kiroy will follow up with a play on the cuck joke
and
Gravel will bitch about how shitty the posts are.
And then 4-5 miscellaneous other idiots will begin a 1 line circlejerk with wornout socialism jabs until the post is buried and everyone can join in.

Palum · Sep 6, 2017

Ratina said:
Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

By definition someone who wants socialism either wants free stuff (sees it as the best way to acquire resources) or they are better off than they would be and they are misguided fools who don't think rationally with a world view that's comprehensive. That's it. It's not rocket surgery, socialism only works in unthreatened highly homogenous populations with authoritarian oversight to ensure free market capitalism doesn't innovate past the boundaries of socialism.

Mario Speedwagon · Sep 6, 2017

Ratina said:
Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

whoa get a load of this retarded cuck

Ratina · Sep 6, 2017

Leadsalad said:
Are you going to magic wand away human nature and a large percentage of the population's desire to do absolutely fuck all in the face of free shit and be a drain on the rest AS WELL AS eliminating the other half of us who once in some sort of power become corrupted absolutely?

What are the checks and balances on this magical "true" socialism that has never been tried before?

What of my 2 line 'what I want' suggests anything that would lead yo to those conclusions? I don't mention a person, policy or institution.

Sadre Spinegnawer · Sep 6, 2017

Phazael said:
Any reason this thread was not started directly in the Rickshaw?

Op topic, Socialism works for utilities, education, disaster relief, infrastructure, and certain aspects of defense. It sucks for nearly everything else.

I second the rickshaw. "socialism" is a some bugbear for some people. Look, all it means is that certain activities are removed from or regulated (utilized) in the free market. Every modern economy works this way So yeah, go ahead, try to sell me a pillow that will change my life. But don't sell me baby formula that is actually half industrial myconid fertilizer, or the government, not me and my dead, half-mushroom kid is after you.

Sometimes, it is nice to know, you can call the authorities.

(We are not talking radical or statist socialism, where whole industries are fully nationalized. That will never happen in the US lol.)

Ratina · Sep 6, 2017

Palum said:
By definition someone who wants socialism either wants free stuff (sees it as the best way to acquire resources) or they are better off than they would be and they are misguided fools who don't think rationally with a world view that's comprehensive. That's it. It's not rocket surgery, socialism only works in unthreatened highly homogenous populations with authoritarian oversight to ensure free market capitalism doesn't innovate past the boundaries of socialism.

Meh. Why do you get to rewrite the definition of socialism? And I find it hard to believe large swaths of the population including successful businessmen and politicians are just retarded.

Screamfeeder · Sep 6, 2017

Kiroy said:
There's no point. I'll just be the fool that wants the pipe dream of smaller more efficient government. And rand paul is a douche who sometimes is right.

You know who else is a douche that is sometimes right?

DEATHSQUAD KILLARY THE LIBCUCKTARD FEMINAZI!

AngryGerbil · Sep 6, 2017

Ratina said:
Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

Your opinion on Rand, please? I seek to test your claim to detail and nuance.

Ratina · Sep 6, 2017

AngryGerbil said:
Your opinion on Rand, please? I seek to test your claim to detail and nuance.

Anne? Never read the book.

Paul? Don't know much about him cept hes a Libertarian (who if they would lead the charge against climate change would steal so many Liberals the Dem's head would spin)

AngryGerbil · Sep 7, 2017

Yes, Ayn. Just curious. Proceed.

Palum · Sep 7, 2017

Ratina said:
Meh. Why do you get to rewrite the definition of socialism? And I find it hard to believe large swaths of the population including successful businessmen and politicians are just retarded.

Socialism is the gateway drug to communism. It's the same concept cloaked in smoke and mirrors to look like "fairer capitalism".

It is one step away. Socialism = state controls means of production, communism = people(state) owns it. It's literally implementing communism lite with authoritarian controls on top of a faux free market.

The Nordic countries aren't truly socialist yet, because they have excess resources. Once they start running out (which will happen soon, especially for Sweden), they will have to commit the full Venezuela. From then it is only a matter of time.

Ratina · Sep 7, 2017

Lets see if we can come to an agreement on what socialism means.

To me, socialism is taking a 'thing' and putting under collective control. 99 out of 100 times this collective control will be a government but its not strictly required. Remember when Reagan federalized the air traffic controllers? That's the type of socialism i'm talking about. The fact that I am better off paying x$'s into taxes so a collective hired to specifically to manage the 'thing' and can use the resources in ways the individual never can. If you could personally ah la cart your taxes, or if States had the responsibility of forming and maintaining a military, or a postal service, or public works, whatever; you would never have stealth bombers or e-mail. Some things are just better when controlled in a socialized manner, not everything, but some things.

Palum · Sep 7, 2017

Ratina said:
Lets see if we can come to an agreement on what socialism means.

To me, socialism is taking a 'thing' and putting under collective control. 99 out of 100 times this collective control will be a government but its not strictly required. Remember when Reagan federalized the air traffic controllers? That's the type of socialism i'm talking about. The fact that I am better off paying x$'s into taxes so a collective hired to specifically to manage the 'thing' and can use the resources in ways the individual never can. If you could personally ah la cart your taxes, or if States had the responsibility of forming and maintaining a military, or a postal service, or public works, whatever; you would never have stealth bombers or e-mail. Some things are just better when controlled in a socialized manner, not everything, but some things.

That's not socialism. ATC is not a significant portion of the GDP. Utilities are not GDP producing industries. Yes if you keep going and adding more and more you will eventually have socialism. Then when you finally erode property rights you will have communism.

Ratina · Sep 7, 2017

Palum said:
That's not socialism. ATC is not a significant portion of the GDP. Utilities are not GDP producing industries. Yes if you keep going and adding more and more you will eventually have socialism. Then when you finally erode property rights you will have communism.

So you define it more as a math thing? How much of the GDP is relevant.

So if I wanted to take the bubble gum industry and place it under federal control, this would not be Socializing the Gum industry because its not as impactfull on the general economy?

Kiroy · Sep 7, 2017

What webster says

Definition of SOCIALISM

What potato says

"a street light"

Palum · Sep 7, 2017

Ratina said:
So you define it more as a math thing? How much of the GDP is relevant.

So if I wanted to take the bubble gum industry and place it under federal control, this would not be Socializing the Gum industry because its not as impactfull on the general economy?

It's not just the fact that it's GDP, it's also service vs production. The US basically mints currency and that's it. Everything else is contracted to private sector. It gets fuzzy because service economies didn't rusty exist in the days of Marx. So you have to look at it and evaluate, you can't just say "factories".

The reason why true single payer socialized medicine is more dangerous simply due to its scope despite the fact that it technically isn't producing tangible commodities in all cases.

"Socializing" something is turning it into a government service or organization. Doesn't mean it's literally socialism just because it's regulated.

Ratina · Sep 7, 2017

Palum said:
"Socializing" something is turning it into a government service or organization. Doesn't mean it's literally socialism just because it's regulated.

So there exists things that can be turned into a government service for the purposes of regulation that you do not object to?

The Benefits of Socialism

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