Arden
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Sounds like your grudge is with 5e. All I was saying is that there has been some version of flying in just about every version of d&d since first edition.
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Sounds like your grudge is with 5e. All I was saying is that there has been some version of flying in just about every version of d&d since first edition.
Genjiro
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It is.
And flying was just super rare.
And @ Hatorade, no levitation on its own back then wouldn't have been enough. But the Drow in those days would have wiped the floor with a PC party in the Underdark of even remotely the same level characters. They were feared with a capital F for a reason.
From the Drow of the Underdark 2e sourcebook:
Keep in mind Magic resist back then would flat out completely resist the spell, no advantage or half damage, it just does nothing.
Arden
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I think D&D 5th is a great system for beginners and players who want to focus more on RPing than tactics/number crunchy stuff, but I have yet to find a fantasy system that was a good combination of:
1. Skill based and classless
2. Easy to learn
3. Easy to play
4. Significant "crunchiness" in terms of tactics
5. Adequately difficult and adequately brutal
I got tired of waiting for somebody to build that system, so I built my own.
One of my Races is a natural flier. In playtesting the system, it's clear flight gives players who choose this race some significant advantages. I balance these advantages by:
1. Choosing the flying race is "cost heavy" in terms of build points. If you want to fly, you'll have to sacrifice other things.
2. There are significant flight limitations. You can fly once per rest, for an hour max, and there are armor restrictions. I built in ways to improve these restrictions with XP, but (again) if you want to improve your flight abilities, you'll have to sacrifice other things.
3. Most NPCs (and PCs) have at least some form of ranged attack to fight against fliers. For those that don't, well, that's your choice. Maybe after the first time you encounter a flier you spend some XP picking up a good ranged attack.
4. Most importantly, lots of spells and abilities in my game cause characters to gain the Incapacitated condition, which means they don't have any actions on their turn. With my flight rules, you must spend at least one action per round flying or you fall. Falling damage is ROUGH. You fall from 100 feet, you're almost certainly going to die. If you fall from 50 feet, you might survive, but you will probably sustain a Serious or Devastating injury (broken bones, internal injuries, etc.). Serious and Devastating injuries are a pain in the ass. They impose various penalties and can't be healed by spells that only heal HP damage.
In short, flying is fun, flying has some advantages, but it definitely isn't imbalanced in my system (otherwise, everyone would play a flier).
1. Skill based and classless
2. Easy to learn
3. Easy to play
4. Significant "crunchiness" in terms of tactics
5. Adequately difficult and adequately brutal
I got tired of waiting for somebody to build that system, so I built my own.
One of my Races is a natural flier. In playtesting the system, it's clear flight gives players who choose this race some significant advantages. I balance these advantages by:
1. Choosing the flying race is "cost heavy" in terms of build points. If you want to fly, you'll have to sacrifice other things.
2. There are significant flight limitations. You can fly once per rest, for an hour max, and there are armor restrictions. I built in ways to improve these restrictions with XP, but (again) if you want to improve your flight abilities, you'll have to sacrifice other things.
3. Most NPCs (and PCs) have at least some form of ranged attack to fight against fliers. For those that don't, well, that's your choice. Maybe after the first time you encounter a flier you spend some XP picking up a good ranged attack.
4. Most importantly, lots of spells and abilities in my game cause characters to gain the Incapacitated condition, which means they don't have any actions on their turn. With my flight rules, you must spend at least one action per round flying or you fall. Falling damage is ROUGH. You fall from 100 feet, you're almost certainly going to die. If you fall from 50 feet, you might survive, but you will probably sustain a Serious or Devastating injury (broken bones, internal injuries, etc.). Serious and Devastating injuries are a pain in the ass. They impose various penalties and can't be healed by spells that only heal HP damage.
In short, flying is fun, flying has some advantages, but it definitely isn't imbalanced in my system (otherwise, everyone would play a flier).
Genjiro
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I understand you man.
Its just.... why create a problem that you then have to create a solution for if you never created the problem to begin with.
To emphasize how retarded flight is, an aarakocra with a +1 bow could fucking solo a Tarrasque unless the DM used godmode to prevent it. Easily done with the sharpshooter feat mind you.
Its just.... why create a problem that you then have to create a solution for if you never created the problem to begin with.
To emphasize how retarded flight is, an aarakocra with a +1 bow could fucking solo a Tarrasque unless the DM used godmode to prevent it. Easily done with the sharpshooter feat mind you.
Arden
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It's not really a problem though. Not any more than any other spell or ability is a problem. In that regard, everything in an RPG is a "problem" and how you solve the problem is the fun part. There are definitely some spells, features, abilities that can break a game because they are so "powerful" that they are too much trouble to deal with. It sounds like you think flight fits in that category. But, again, from my experience, it doesn't fit in that category. It's been pretty easy to handle flight so far.
Keep in mind, TTRPGs aren't video games. Players can't stand up on the balcony and kill guards because of a pathing error like you could in High Keep in EQ. If a player is exploiting some game mechanic to the point that they are breaking the game, change the rules, or bring in a "solution" in the form of an NPC and give the player a smackdown. You're the GM, you're equipped with all the tools you need to handle those situations.
But in my experience, if the rules for flight are even halfway decent it isn't a gamebreaking feature.
Edit: BTW, the DM IS god. Godmode for a DM is just being DM.
Keep in mind, TTRPGs aren't video games. Players can't stand up on the balcony and kill guards because of a pathing error like you could in High Keep in EQ. If a player is exploiting some game mechanic to the point that they are breaking the game, change the rules, or bring in a "solution" in the form of an NPC and give the player a smackdown. You're the GM, you're equipped with all the tools you need to handle those situations.
But in my experience, if the rules for flight are even halfway decent it isn't a gamebreaking feature.
Edit: BTW, the DM IS god. Godmode for a DM is just being DM.
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Genjiro
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Godmode is a weak response to fix dumb rules. Then you have to change everything based around this.
This has devolved into a pointless discussion. 5e to me is shit and shouldnt have to go massively breaking the rules. 2e/3e definitely did not have the same kinds of issues. If anything you had to tone down certain NPC's (like Drow, where a raiding party of the aforementioned would 100% assrape a non-Underdark PC party if the DM was being remotely objective)
I went into it DMing for friends since nobody wanted to for my friends group. I took the hit since you need to know 100x as much as the players and I didnt really understand at first how gamebreaking this shit was till we got into it a bit and by then people are attached to their characters. Keep in mind we all go back to mmorpgs etc, and they are all min/maxers so I know these faggot friends of mine (I say this lovingly because they are all so good in every game we play and I wouldnt expect less) would find all these things to break the game with. Im left with scrambling to try and make things challenging for them.
Apologies, Im not trying to be hostile but fuck Dming in 2e was a goddamn blast and when you went up against tough shit it was likely to kill you -- seems so different now. Critical Role for instance their characters died a fucking million times and were fine -- oh herp derp we will res you no problem! In old DnD you were perma dead from that shit, or your CON would have been fucked getting rezzed that many times and even then Matthew Mercer added a % chance for rez spells to fail to make it more punishing than standard 5e and its still been pretty easy for them.
Resurrection to me, should be like the most powerful and rare thing in the game. As Schilling/Salvatore and 38s made a great point of introducing in the lore of Kingdoms of Amalur, imagine our world where you could rez people. You would 100%rule it. What would you guys pay if your mom died to bring her back to life? Everything you owned probaly, right? Kind of philosophical but I think any DM worth their salt should really think through this. FR seems to just accept its common and no big fucking deal, except all the baddies are never resurrected? Why???? Terrible writing and worldbuilding imo.
In DnD its like, hmm whatevs come back from the dead no problem. Again, more shit I would change when I finish my own worldbuilding.
This has devolved into a pointless discussion. 5e to me is shit and shouldnt have to go massively breaking the rules. 2e/3e definitely did not have the same kinds of issues. If anything you had to tone down certain NPC's (like Drow, where a raiding party of the aforementioned would 100% assrape a non-Underdark PC party if the DM was being remotely objective)
I went into it DMing for friends since nobody wanted to for my friends group. I took the hit since you need to know 100x as much as the players and I didnt really understand at first how gamebreaking this shit was till we got into it a bit and by then people are attached to their characters. Keep in mind we all go back to mmorpgs etc, and they are all min/maxers so I know these faggot friends of mine (I say this lovingly because they are all so good in every game we play and I wouldnt expect less) would find all these things to break the game with. Im left with scrambling to try and make things challenging for them.
Apologies, Im not trying to be hostile but fuck Dming in 2e was a goddamn blast and when you went up against tough shit it was likely to kill you -- seems so different now. Critical Role for instance their characters died a fucking million times and were fine -- oh herp derp we will res you no problem! In old DnD you were perma dead from that shit, or your CON would have been fucked getting rezzed that many times and even then Matthew Mercer added a % chance for rez spells to fail to make it more punishing than standard 5e and its still been pretty easy for them.
Resurrection to me, should be like the most powerful and rare thing in the game. As Schilling/Salvatore and 38s made a great point of introducing in the lore of Kingdoms of Amalur, imagine our world where you could rez people. You would 100%rule it. What would you guys pay if your mom died to bring her back to life? Everything you owned probaly, right? Kind of philosophical but I think any DM worth their salt should really think through this. FR seems to just accept its common and no big fucking deal, except all the baddies are never resurrected? Why???? Terrible writing and worldbuilding imo.
In DnD its like, hmm whatevs come back from the dead no problem. Again, more shit I would change when I finish my own worldbuilding.
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Genjiro
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Switching gears, btw, what dungeon terrain tiles do you guys use if any? Sized for 28mm? 32 mm? I have seen arguments for larger tiles based on how the walls interfere with spacing. The Warlock full height wall tiles seem to remedy a lot of this since they had small tiles to fix the corner issues, but its expensive if you want to lay out full dungeons that are large. For 100$ its a pretty small dungeon you can create and from what Ive read you would need at least 6-7 boxes + other accessories. We're now talking a pretty big cash investment, which I'm ok with if it's massively time saving and something which I will be able to use for a long time (which it seems to be compared to say, Dwarven forge).
The alternative is using XPS foam and rollers etc to create and paint your own, but that seems insanely time consuming. This is for 4-5 people in person btw, we dont do online shit cuz fuck that.
The alternative is using XPS foam and rollers etc to create and paint your own, but that seems insanely time consuming. This is for 4-5 people in person btw, we dont do online shit cuz fuck that.
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Indyocracy
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My only comment on this is, being told you can't play with a toy sucks but you move on to something else and usually forget. If someone gives you a toy but then every time you play with it they keep taking pieces away, or changing it you tend to resent them and focus exclusively on the one toy.
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Arden
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Agree 100%. As a player I love finding loopholes taking advantage of loose mechanics to create badass characters. And it pisses me off when a GM doesn't know how to handle it in an organic way and imposes some bullshit heavy-handed exception to the rules just to thwart me.
On the other hand, if you are playing a decent rule set and your GM has a little bit of talent, instances like this should be really rare. Stuff like this almost never comes up these days for me and the groups I play with. But it does happen.
Like I keep saying, I've never had to impose some bullshit rule change to handle any type of flying exploit in my games. I've always been able to handle that with the mechanics already in place and in an organic manner. Maybe other people have a different experience
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Genjiro
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Appreciate your view.
As I said above, my friends are 100% min maxers who in WOW/EQ etc nerd out to maximize their rotations etc. These guys will take 1 inch and go a mile to break the game with it. Its already frustrating enough to see where one is headed with a Bugbear character thats going to end up with Hold the Line + Polearm Mastery. This retarded ass shit is something NO NPCs will ever have. I cant imagine how dumb this shit will be when his Cavalier hits 18th level one day and can literally be Leonidas and hold back the entire army in melee on his own. Granted even at 18th level as a DM it will be easier to deal with than the flying characters (ie spellcasters/sharpshooters with fucking 600 range).
Btw didnt we play a mmorpg together? Rift maybe? I seem to remember you from somewhere.
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Arden
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Don't know- might have at some point, but it wouldn't have been under this name. You might have just seen my name around these forums. I've had the same handle with the same avatar since 04.
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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If youre dm'ing a game where a single aaracokra with a +1 bow is killing a terrasque, then that seems like a problem with the dm.
2e was hard, and like you said, encounters were brutal but that was also a part of the genre at the time. dnd during 2e was basically just a rogue type game where you pushed your group as hard as you could until you died and started over. 5e is SIGNIFICANTLY more focused on the narrative. in a lot of senses it's just story mode difficulty. but all you have to do is tweak the encounters to make them more difficult.
the irony of it all is that if you look in the dmg, they give you a formula for creating encounters based on CR but they threw that formula out when they did it which ended up significantly undertuning CR. but the point is, if you have a player (or players) who are min-maxing, make creatures that are min-maxed. if youre worried about your bugbear leonidas, then design a counter for him. you have the benefit of knowing exactly what your players can and can't do. you can literally make up a creature that is immune to being stopped. call it a phantom courser and it's some headless horseman on a ghostly steed that is only vaguely corporeal and can't be grappled, knocked prone, slowed, etc. it just runs around charging through whatever paltry defenses it comes across.
YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
2e was hard, and like you said, encounters were brutal but that was also a part of the genre at the time. dnd during 2e was basically just a rogue type game where you pushed your group as hard as you could until you died and started over. 5e is SIGNIFICANTLY more focused on the narrative. in a lot of senses it's just story mode difficulty. but all you have to do is tweak the encounters to make them more difficult.
the irony of it all is that if you look in the dmg, they give you a formula for creating encounters based on CR but they threw that formula out when they did it which ended up significantly undertuning CR. but the point is, if you have a player (or players) who are min-maxing, make creatures that are min-maxed. if youre worried about your bugbear leonidas, then design a counter for him. you have the benefit of knowing exactly what your players can and can't do. you can literally make up a creature that is immune to being stopped. call it a phantom courser and it's some headless horseman on a ghostly steed that is only vaguely corporeal and can't be grappled, knocked prone, slowed, etc. it just runs around charging through whatever paltry defenses it comes across.
YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
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Onoes
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I said I never had a problem with flight as in - I've never had a problem with flight ruining/breaking the game. I've never had a problem with balancing flight for players / monsters. Not that I've never had to deal with flying.
As to the second thing, I didn't give a player an item with flight to balance or counter anything in the game. In fact, I don't think my characters have ever even had an encounter with any flying creature (not that I can think of anyway, if they did it wasn't memorable) If you want to get really technical, I didn't even intentionally give my player flight when they got it.
In my storyline there is a giant arcane machine that PC's are able to occasionally access to claim a gift from a god of random chance and fortune. It's basically a giant gatcha machine, with the pc's having to work together to turn the gears until a glowing ball of energy pops out, and forms into some sort of magic item.
So, at the start of the campaign I made a list of 25 magic items that I thought were varying degrees of cool. I then purchased a gumball machine, and a bag of rubber bouncy balls. I drew items on the bouncy balls (A shield, a fork, a pair of glasses, a canon, etc etc) and put them in the machine. I also put printed pictures of their characters and put them inside the machine (so you can't see the balls). When the characters earn a spin on the machine, I give them a quarter and they beeline to their home base and the machine. They pop the quarter in and get their bouncy ball, say something like "Uhhh it looks like a book?" and the old gnome who maintains the machine starts dancing around and explaining what they won. They fucking love it, everyone has fun.
I like it too, its a challenge for me, because I have a rough outline of the entire campaign all drawn up, and while I know what all is in the machine, I have no idea from lvl 1-20 exactly what my PC's are going to be able to do. The barb pulled that shit at lvl 3 or 5, somewhere much lower than I was hoping, and it potentially breaks some of my planned encounters, sure, but if that happens they feel good about using their chars abilities\items, so its still a win for everyone gameplay wise.
Different strokes for different folks. That Cleric Twilight Sanctuary you posted up above looks cool to me, I would have no problem with letting a PC have it. You have a power at lvl 6 that lets you fly a couple times for a minute at a time, but it has to be at night or in darkness? That doesn't concern me, sounds fun, lets see what you do with it. /shrug
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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yeah it really seems like it's more an issue of people not liking something out of principle and then finding reasons that support their viewpoint, as opposed to having experiences where certain abilities or skills broke encounters.
i've talked about this before, but my dm, several years ago when he was getting back into dm'ing after a few decades break, invited someone to play without fully understanding what kind of player he is. he's a part of my home game and after a few months i quickly figured out that he just does not like combat. so he considers it a puzzle to circumvent combat and how to solve them in creative ways. he's gotten significantly better at being a team player as far as that goes, but when he was younger he didn't know how to reel himself in.
he made an illusion wizard and literally broke every encounter the dm set. he did it so much and so effectively that the dm actually banned enchantment wizards and spells at the table for a short time so that he could figure out better ways to deal with what was happening. it was really pissing him off because he'd spend so much time planning an encounter only for the enchantment wizard to cast some silly low level spell in such an oddball way that the whole encounter was solved with a single spell.
but the thing is, the dm understood that the issue wasn't in the player, nor was it in the character, the spells or the abilities. it was with himself. so he took some time to figure out how to respond to it and opened it back up to players.
i've actually played several games with people who could fly. we did a one shot where we all played as aarakocra, basically as a joke and flight was never a problem. i've found that if there's a problem in the game, it's not in the game, it's at the table. either the dm or the players are causing a problem, sometimes without having any idea they are doing it. i can absolutely understand not allowing homebrew stuff. our table is pretty loose with that stuff and generally at least one of us each campaign has created our own homebrew class, but i can completely get behind a table that doesn't allow that.
what seems silly to me is banning something that's from an official source. "i don't like tasha's, so it's banned at my table" just seems... immature i guess.
i've talked about this before, but my dm, several years ago when he was getting back into dm'ing after a few decades break, invited someone to play without fully understanding what kind of player he is. he's a part of my home game and after a few months i quickly figured out that he just does not like combat. so he considers it a puzzle to circumvent combat and how to solve them in creative ways. he's gotten significantly better at being a team player as far as that goes, but when he was younger he didn't know how to reel himself in.
he made an illusion wizard and literally broke every encounter the dm set. he did it so much and so effectively that the dm actually banned enchantment wizards and spells at the table for a short time so that he could figure out better ways to deal with what was happening. it was really pissing him off because he'd spend so much time planning an encounter only for the enchantment wizard to cast some silly low level spell in such an oddball way that the whole encounter was solved with a single spell.
but the thing is, the dm understood that the issue wasn't in the player, nor was it in the character, the spells or the abilities. it was with himself. so he took some time to figure out how to respond to it and opened it back up to players.
i've actually played several games with people who could fly. we did a one shot where we all played as aarakocra, basically as a joke and flight was never a problem. i've found that if there's a problem in the game, it's not in the game, it's at the table. either the dm or the players are causing a problem, sometimes without having any idea they are doing it. i can absolutely understand not allowing homebrew stuff. our table is pretty loose with that stuff and generally at least one of us each campaign has created our own homebrew class, but i can completely get behind a table that doesn't allow that.
what seems silly to me is banning something that's from an official source. "i don't like tasha's, so it's banned at my table" just seems... immature i guess.
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Genjiro
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Mmmhmm.
The problem isn't with the DM, that's a copout. Oh we made all this broken shit that's really hard to prepare for, deal with it DM -- its your fault if you dont. The only fault was ever allowing it in the first place.
I get it with illusions, since that has been a problem dating back since the inception of DnD. Illusions rarely have actual rules, its mostly DM discretion, and if you're dealing with low(er) IQ NPC's Illusion spells (if you're being objective) are going to be the most powerful school of magic by a longshot since you have full creative control to do whatever. That's another example of shitty game design, not whoever your DM was. A cool idea conceptually, a horrible idea in practice.
Have you actually read the some of the official sources? The community as a whole understands how dumb and unbalanced it is -- Tasha's specifically -- the playerbase en masse basically said they are overpowering the fuck out of things just to sell this book. Who woulda thunk it????!!! /nicholascageface.jpg
The problem isn't with the DM, that's a copout. Oh we made all this broken shit that's really hard to prepare for, deal with it DM -- its your fault if you dont. The only fault was ever allowing it in the first place.
I get it with illusions, since that has been a problem dating back since the inception of DnD. Illusions rarely have actual rules, its mostly DM discretion, and if you're dealing with low(er) IQ NPC's Illusion spells (if you're being objective) are going to be the most powerful school of magic by a longshot since you have full creative control to do whatever. That's another example of shitty game design, not whoever your DM was. A cool idea conceptually, a horrible idea in practice.
Have you actually read the some of the official sources? The community as a whole understands how dumb and unbalanced it is -- Tasha's specifically -- the playerbase en masse basically said they are overpowering the fuck out of things just to sell this book. Who woulda thunk it????!!! /nicholascageface.jpg
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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i have all the official books, i've read why they made them all. i've never heard "because we want to make the players overpowered" be anything close to a reason. you are the only person i've ever heard say that.
again, the dm is LITERALLY God. as the dm you can do WHATEVER you want, WHENEVER you want. the players are beholden to rules that you are not. players can't make up whatever abilities they want, you can.
but honestly, it's your game, do whatever you want with it, ban whatever you want for whatever reason you want. again, the dm is god and can do that.
again, the dm is LITERALLY God. as the dm you can do WHATEVER you want, WHENEVER you want. the players are beholden to rules that you are not. players can't make up whatever abilities they want, you can.
but honestly, it's your game, do whatever you want with it, ban whatever you want for whatever reason you want. again, the dm is god and can do that.
To me one of the real tricks to DMing is when the players want to do some crazy shit, let them. But you have to control thr situation without letting them know you are controlling thr situation.
Also never let them know what's going to work. If they think they are doing some crazy hard scheme and are super into it. But from the DMs point it's something super simple they will do. Build it up. Make them think its insanely tough. Even though you know they are going to do it.
Then if they roll badly. Just do a friendly thing like, oh what happened I was writing something did you roll yet? And I'll wait for them to reroll.
Its all just keeping the grand illusion of difficulty.
I mean we've all been playing the same chars for 10+ yrs. I've only ever killed 2 people. One because he was quitting that night. And the other because it was a tough fight. But then doing a whole thing of resurrection was just unejoyable for everyone.
Also never let them know what's going to work. If they think they are doing some crazy hard scheme and are super into it. But from the DMs point it's something super simple they will do. Build it up. Make them think its insanely tough. Even though you know they are going to do it.
Then if they roll badly. Just do a friendly thing like, oh what happened I was writing something did you roll yet? And I'll wait for them to reroll.
Its all just keeping the grand illusion of difficulty.
I mean we've all been playing the same chars for 10+ yrs. I've only ever killed 2 people. One because he was quitting that night. And the other because it was a tough fight. But then doing a whole thing of resurrection was just unejoyable for everyone.
Grabbit Allworth
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Flying PCs is one of those things that doesn't sound too terrible in theory to DMs (or players), but in practice, it can be a huge pain in the ass.
Certainly you can account for flying, but once it's introduced, you ALWAYS have to account for it. Flight tends to steal some level of dynamic play while also creating some very one-dimensional situations. It also makes many, otherwise interesting, problem-solving situations trivial. It gets extremely tiresome having to consider the impact flight will have on every combat, puzzle, trap, social encounter, period of travel, and element of exploration. There aren't many spells and/or abilities that have that kind of impact across so many areas of the game. The other spells/abilities that have a similar level of impact don't typically come on-line until much later. Certainly much later than 5th level.
I'm definitely not against flight, I'm just acutely aware of how it manifests in practice. I will almost never provide players with the ability to fly before they can cast the spell themselves.
Flight certainly isn't alone in its problem-causing, but it's definitely one of the things that a DM can put his finger on and say -- "Yessir, that's gonna be an issue."
In truth, there are a lot of mechanics that are just as (if not, more so) frustrating as flight, but very few of them are as cut and dry in terms of identifying the problem as well its consequences.
I remember two particular, old campaign sessions where flight was the sole mechanic that completely derailed heavily prepared games. I spent hours planning those sessions, but I had a temporary lapse of judgment and didn't consider their ability to fly. When we played the prepared game(s), it wasn't long before I said to myself -- "Fuck, I forgot you guys could fly." On both occasions, 90-95% of the content I had planned was completely irrelevant, trivialized, or circumvented.
Granted, it was my mistake for forgetting the players had the ability, but usually when situations like that happen it's due to a clever use of a spell/ability, a lucky roll, or something similar. Furthermore, the 'reach' of those situations is usually fairly contained. Flight is just one of those things that screws with things in a major way given how the terrestrial world works. Flight isn't that difficult to deal with, but it sucks that the DM always has to factor it in.
I think some of the people advocating how trivial it is are missing the point because they're either players that don't realize how time-consuming and difficult DMing really is (unless you're one of the shitstains that doesn't prepare; fight me) or they're a DM that doesn't run long-term or regular games. Dealing with shit like flying is trivial for a one shot or a handful of games, but over a 60 session campaign it'll make you want to punch kittens.
I will say this though, since players get the ability to fly at a relatively 'low' level, it's a sneak-peak and decent training for DMs looking to run high-level campaigns. Because, in order to run them, you have to literally keep a set of notes reminding yourself that your group will be able to cross any distance instantly (or close to it), be 'immune' to deception (or able to easily divine the truth), never suffer from a lack of mundane resources, avoid wide swaths of content with the dozens of world-shaping spells, fuck up entire story arcs by Dominating a major NPC so they have someone to get water for the horses, etc, etc, etc.
I have to laugh at the comments that say "Just deal with it breh, you're the DM..you can do anything you want." That's true, but DMs are human beings with varying degrees of creativity and not everyone is capable of maintaining a cohesive, interesting, believable narrative when the players are regularly doing shit to break the game. Sometimes, intentionally. I'm not referencing flight here, just the flawed mentality that a DM can just 'fix' ot handle all the stupid shit players do.
Certainly you can account for flying, but once it's introduced, you ALWAYS have to account for it. Flight tends to steal some level of dynamic play while also creating some very one-dimensional situations. It also makes many, otherwise interesting, problem-solving situations trivial. It gets extremely tiresome having to consider the impact flight will have on every combat, puzzle, trap, social encounter, period of travel, and element of exploration. There aren't many spells and/or abilities that have that kind of impact across so many areas of the game. The other spells/abilities that have a similar level of impact don't typically come on-line until much later. Certainly much later than 5th level.
I'm definitely not against flight, I'm just acutely aware of how it manifests in practice. I will almost never provide players with the ability to fly before they can cast the spell themselves.
Flight certainly isn't alone in its problem-causing, but it's definitely one of the things that a DM can put his finger on and say -- "Yessir, that's gonna be an issue."
In truth, there are a lot of mechanics that are just as (if not, more so) frustrating as flight, but very few of them are as cut and dry in terms of identifying the problem as well its consequences.
I remember two particular, old campaign sessions where flight was the sole mechanic that completely derailed heavily prepared games. I spent hours planning those sessions, but I had a temporary lapse of judgment and didn't consider their ability to fly. When we played the prepared game(s), it wasn't long before I said to myself -- "Fuck, I forgot you guys could fly." On both occasions, 90-95% of the content I had planned was completely irrelevant, trivialized, or circumvented.
Granted, it was my mistake for forgetting the players had the ability, but usually when situations like that happen it's due to a clever use of a spell/ability, a lucky roll, or something similar. Furthermore, the 'reach' of those situations is usually fairly contained. Flight is just one of those things that screws with things in a major way given how the terrestrial world works. Flight isn't that difficult to deal with, but it sucks that the DM always has to factor it in.
I think some of the people advocating how trivial it is are missing the point because they're either players that don't realize how time-consuming and difficult DMing really is (unless you're one of the shitstains that doesn't prepare; fight me) or they're a DM that doesn't run long-term or regular games. Dealing with shit like flying is trivial for a one shot or a handful of games, but over a 60 session campaign it'll make you want to punch kittens.
I will say this though, since players get the ability to fly at a relatively 'low' level, it's a sneak-peak and decent training for DMs looking to run high-level campaigns. Because, in order to run them, you have to literally keep a set of notes reminding yourself that your group will be able to cross any distance instantly (or close to it), be 'immune' to deception (or able to easily divine the truth), never suffer from a lack of mundane resources, avoid wide swaths of content with the dozens of world-shaping spells, fuck up entire story arcs by Dominating a major NPC so they have someone to get water for the horses, etc, etc, etc.
I have to laugh at the comments that say "Just deal with it breh, you're the DM..you can do anything you want." That's true, but DMs are human beings with varying degrees of creativity and not everyone is capable of maintaining a cohesive, interesting, believable narrative when the players are regularly doing shit to break the game. Sometimes, intentionally. I'm not referencing flight here, just the flawed mentality that a DM can just 'fix' ot handle all the stupid shit players do.
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Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 2,731
- 2,055
The D&D Fly spell sucks. It poses problems. Nothing that can't be resolved, but it can be a headache.
A good system builds in limitations and mitigating factors with flight to prevent it from being too much of a headache for the GM. D&D failed in this regard.
A good system builds in limitations and mitigating factors with flight to prevent it from being too much of a headache for the GM. D&D failed in this regard.
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
- 7,380
- 7,476
my first character that got to 20 was a human grave cleric. it was a 3 year campaign and the dm gave me flight at about lvl 14. it was a story beat that resulted in me being able pop fiery wings with 90' fly speed for 10 minutes per day.
it created exactly zero problems at my table.
i'm not saying it WONT create problems, just that the problems you guys are describing seem to be issues with the table, not the game. ie: stop playing with players who get off on trying to ruin the dm's life
it created exactly zero problems at my table.
i'm not saying it WONT create problems, just that the problems you guys are describing seem to be issues with the table, not the game. ie: stop playing with players who get off on trying to ruin the dm's life