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Grabbit Allworth

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You're welcome to join if you're willing to drive. It's supposed to be in person, but if some people can't make it in person we can do online when needed. I haven't done online before though so it seems disjointed as hell to have part of a group in person and the others online.

Never ran or played 5e before, and I haven't played anything in 8 years so I can't say it would be worth the drive.
It's a bit tempting since the game is so infrequent. I'll think it over and get back to you. If I do decide to give it a shot, I'd definitely make the drive. I'd never put you and the group in the incredibly awkward position to try and make a remote player work in a tabletop situation.
 
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bigmark268

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So back in the early to mid 2000s I started buy those old DDM game pieces to use for dnd. So I looked the other day to try and find some more. Man these sets are hard to find. And people on ebay ask an arm and a leg for any of them lol
 

Urlithani

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So back in the early to mid 2000s I started buy those old DDM game pieces to use for dnd. So I looked the other day to try and find some more. Man these sets are hard to find. And people on ebay ask an arm and a leg for any of them lol
Are you talking about the D&D plastic minis that came in a booster box with a random assortment? Cuz I bought a bunch of those a long time ago and I'm glad I did.
 
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bigmark268

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Are you talking about the D&D plastic minis that came in a booster box with a random assortment? Cuz I bought a bunch of those a long time ago and I'm glad I did.
Yup those are the ones. Yeh I got a bunch back when. But wish I bought the rest lol. I use them every time we play.
 
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Urlithani

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Lol damn man you're right. I just looked up the prices. I didn't start collecting them until 2006. I wonder how many sets I missed.
20210823_113515.jpg
 

Qhue

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This is hardly a 'brief survey' if you have extensive experience with different classes, but it's very interesting they are soliciting opinions.

Most of the 'newer' classes are very thematic but lack balanced systems to manage their varied abilities. The 'older' classes seem trapped by their own legacy and are less effective as a result.
 
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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I find stock 5e to be too bland. Also, it doesn't usually present enough danger to players so that they feel the level of apprehension/anxiety they should in dicey situations. So, I've layered on A LOT of extra elements to my game and it's not that difficult to do.
my regular group has been playing 5e for something like 6 years now? we just finished our 2nd lvl 1-20 campaign and the dm has complained a lot about this exact issue. we've been sort of experimenting with trying to increase that anxiety but honestly from my perspective they've all missed the mark and just feel artificial. we have two concurrent campaigns going on right now (same players, just one of the players and the dm switched for one of the games) and one of them we are using gritty realism (short rests are now 8 hours, long rests are a week) and i pretty much hate it. it was SUPPOSED to make us feel worried about using our abilities/spell slots as well as have to deal with as well as remedy their hatred of an adventurer going from 1-20 in a few months in game time... but i feel like those things should be dealt with narratively...

anyway i'm rambling... what have you done to address the overall "story mode difficulty" of 5e?
 

Rime

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The Monday group I am in, the DM has decades of experience and balances things based around our character composition and skill, rather than what should be 'fair'. Group currently consists of two Fighters (Both Battlemasters - One Polearm, One Great Sword), a Cleric (Life), and two wizards (Bladesinger and the character I play, Order of Scribes), so nearly every encounter would be listed as a 'deadly' or impossible fight, just about. Last week, we faced a Behir at level 5 - Which is a CR 11. It did down two people, but then died after four rounds of combat.

We tried the 'gritty realism' of a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a week, but decided that it would lead to almost everyone playing Fighters or Warlocks to 'game' around the system.

---

My Saturday group has all new players (First or second campaign, other than myself and the DM) and we are going through The Mad Mage's Dungeon campaign - boy, the difference in player knowledge/skill is astounding. Totem Barbarian (Self), Assassin Rogue, Horizon Ranger, Diviniation Wizard, Lore Bard, and Life Cleric took almost twice as long to down a Behir at level 10.
 

Urlithani

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The Monday group I am in, the DM has decades of experience and balances things based around our character composition and skill, rather than what should be 'fair'. Group currently consists of two Fighters (Both Battlemasters - One Polearm, One Great Sword), a Cleric (Life), and two wizards (Bladesinger and the character I play, Order of Scribes), so nearly every encounter would be listed as a 'deadly' or impossible fight, just about. Last week, we faced a Behir at level 5 - Which is a CR 11. It did down two people, but then died after four rounds of combat.

We tried the 'gritty realism' of a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a week, but decided that it would lead to almost everyone playing Fighters or Warlocks to 'game' around the system.

---

My Saturday group has all new players (First or second campaign, other than myself and the DM) and we are going through The Mad Mage's Dungeon campaign - boy, the difference in player knowledge/skill is astounding. Totem Barbarian (Self), Assassin Rogue, Horizon Ranger, Diviniation Wizard, Lore Bard, and Life Cleric took almost twice as long to down a Behir at level 10.
Can I ask you for some advice? Heres my situation (first session is this Saturday):

I'm the DM. Been doing it 20 years but havent played 5e. I read the rules, but Most of the players will know the system better than me in the beginning. I have 1 veteran player, 2 intermediate, and 1 brand new player. Is class balance going to be an issue where the new player makes a vanilla PHB, and the more experienced players make something out of Tasha's? (Which I dont have either so that could be a surprise). I'm not going to restrict the characters even if I don't know the system. I've got enough DM experience to figure it out pretty quickly.

My two main questions would be:

1. What sort of quirks about 5e could trip up a DM new to the system?

2. How big of a gap is there between certain classes, and how big can the gap be between player skill?
 

Pancreas

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Can I ask you for some advice? Heres my situation (first session is this Saturday):

I'm the DM. Been doing it 20 years but havent played 5e. I read the rules, but Most of the players will know the system better than me in the beginning. I have 1 veteran player, 2 intermediate, and 1 brand new player. Is class balance going to be an issue where the new player makes a vanilla PHB, and the more experienced players make something out of Tasha's? (Which I dont have either so that could be a surprise). I'm not going to restrict the characters even if I don't know the system. I've got enough DM experience to figure it out pretty quickly.

My two main questions would be:

1. What sort of quirks about 5e could trip up a DM new to the system?

2. How big of a gap is there between certain classes, and how big can the gap be between player skill?

There are some quirky rules regarding initiative rolls. Since rolling for initiative is a dexterity check, certain abilities that apply to ability checks such as bard: jack of all trades, and champion fighter: remarkable athlete, can enhance a players initiative roll. Super easy to overlook those.

Ability score rolls do not automatically fail on a natural 1. If your modifier is high enough to still pass the DC, you pass. Attack rolls still auto fail on 1s and auto hit on 20s.

Handing out inspiration about once per session is a fun way to give people an extra, oh shit button.

Relying on darkvision incurs disadvantage on visual perception checks. Counts as dim light and only see in shades of gray.

Being hidden from a target grants advantage, being unable to see a target grants disadvantage. One source of advantage cancels all forms of disadvantage and vice versa. Magical darkness is hard to see through even for normal darkvision. This almost always creates a scenario where everyone still rolls normally since no one can see their targets, but are simultaneously hidden from them. Warlocks devil sight, true vision and blind sight can overcome this granting advantage on attacks and disadvantage to attackers.

There are no "surprise" rounds per se. Beginning of any combat have everyone roll initiative. Proceed down the initiative list. Skip over any creatures or players you belive to be surprised by this combat occurring. That was the first round of combat.

Any creature that suspects combat may be possible in the near future, can't be surprised, like a Guard actively looking for danger. A guard who is sleepy or not paying attention however... Surprise only lasts for the first round of combat.

Stealth allows a creature to move quietly and to not draw attention to themselves. It does not grant invisibility. Trying to stealth through an open, well lit courtyard in direct line of sight of other creatures should be next to impossible and require a godlike roll (30+)

Invisibility makes a creature impossible to see without magical means, but does not make them silent. They can still trip, bump into things, sneeze ect.

For class balance:

OG beast master rangers had a tough time.

Paladins of any stripe are powerful, especially oath of vengeance and oath of the crown.

Spellcasters take a good understanding of which spells are useful and when to get the most out of them. A wizard that picks lack luster spells will have a much harder time shining.

Healing is... not usually the best use of an action mid combat unless someone is down, even then if you can dump more damage then they could you are probably better off just burning enemies down and then healing when there are only a few left/ out of combat.

Crowd control abilities and spells can completely shut down an encounter. They are the most powerful actions a player can take by a huge margin provided the enemy does not have immunity/ legendary saves.

Classes that get most or all of their resources back on short rests versus ones that need long rests are much better at handling lots of encounters per day.

Action economy is everything. A veteran player will plan out their character to have a solid option to use their action, bonus action, reaction and movement every turn.

Archery fighting style makes the sharpshooter feat much more consistent.

Any class / feat/ spell/ saving roll that allows a character to reduce damage by half that is not specifically granting resistance to a damage type can also apply the appropriate damage resistance to cut damage to 1/4.

Barbarians and fighters are still really solid. They don't have lots of tools but so long as they are able to close the gap they can dish out damage without too much micro management. Very durable characters.

Certain feats are incredibly strong and others are basically useless. Newer players might not be able to tell which ones grant the largest benefit.
 
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Fyff

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Gritty realism is stupid and is an unnecessary roadblock that feels bad to play and to run as a DM. If your encounters aren't challenging enough, your DM needs to play smarter or needs to add more CR to the encounter.

You also need to take a look at what you want out of each encounter. Is the encounter there to drain resources for a big fight later or is it there to be the big fight? Some times a level 6 wizard NPC dropping a fireball or two on the party is enough to change life :)
 
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Urlithani

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Thanks guys. I havent even played 5E yet, but I'm already making adjustments to keep things at a reasonable power level. The world is lower level magic, so a +1 armor or +1 weapon is the best it's going to get.

I've made some weaker magic properties to add variety:

Elemental reduction (e.g. cold 1 reduces cold damage by 1 to a minimum of 1)

Temporary hit points: a magical item might give you 3 temporary hp after a long rest. Temp HP doesnt stack with other items that grant temp HP so theres no point in wearing multiple.

Max hit points: A magic item can increase your max hit points. This does stack with other magic items that do so.

Basically the world is more dangerous because you can't get an AC in the 20's. You increase survivability with HP and a little mitigation. (This is partially from playing and DM'ing 3.0/3.5/PF for 15 years. I had 2 min/maxers and 1 min/maxer/rules lawyer, so things just got ridiculous. Those 3 could hardly be challenged, but the other 3 players struggled. It was tough to balance sometimes).

On the flip side, its going to be a lot of exploring and kingdom building. They won't be parading through the Abyss or hunting dragons for villagers. I'm not going to throw a bunch of higher level monsters at them if I'm not giving them standard magical equipment for their level. That said, when they face higher level monsters itll be more serious, and groups of smaller monsters won't be something that really phases out.
 
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Fyff

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Why couldn't you get an AC in the 20s? There are many combinations that get there without magic items.
 

bigmark268

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Lol damn man you're right. I just looked up the prices. I didn't start collecting them until 2006. I wonder how many sets I missed. View attachment 369174
Oh man! You got a bunch of the dragons. I was a poor just out of college bum back then. So I couldn't get many of the huge rates. but those minis are so great for dnd. I love how they are all to proper scale. I've picked up more as the year went on. I'll post a pic this weekend if I can.
 
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Urlithani

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Oh man! You got a bunch of the dragons. I was a poor just out of college bum back then. So I couldn't get many of the huge rates. but those minis are so great for dnd. I love how they are all to proper scale. I've picked up more as the year went on. I'll post a pic this weekend if I can.
Yeah I started buying them right before the one expansion with 1 Huge mini in each pack came out (War of the dragon queen I think). I just left EB games as Assistant Mgr to a corporate gig for 12.50 an hour. It was sad but I felt like I was balling at the time.

Kind of wish I didn't look at the prices though because my kids are gonna be all over these: Tiamat is $140, mammoth rider $80, purple worm and dracolich are $55. Makes up for all the Magic and Pokemon cards I lost I guess.

Now I got the itch. I saw Reaper Bones minis. I might have to buy some of those to placate myself without spending a lot of money.
 

Grabbit Allworth

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my regular group has been playing 5e for something like 6 years now? we just finished our 2nd lvl 1-20 campaign and the dm has complained a lot about this exact issue. we've been sort of experimenting with trying to increase that anxiety but honestly from my perspective they've all missed the mark and just feel artificial. we have two concurrent campaigns going on right now (same players, just one of the players and the dm switched for one of the games) and one of them we are using gritty realism (short rests are now 8 hours, long rests are a week) and i pretty much hate it. it was SUPPOSED to make us feel worried about using our abilities/spell slots as well as have to deal with as well as remedy their hatred of an adventurer going from 1-20 in a few months in game time... but i feel like those things should be dealt with narratively...

anyway i'm rambling... what have you done to address the overall "story mode difficulty" of 5e?
I absolutely hate this too.

I try to address it by making lengthy downtime activities so attractive that players really want to spend several abstract months between adventures to work on side-projects. For groups that enjoy it, I also enforce a rule that leveling requires (progressively more lengthy) training. Training-to-level isn't a perfect system by any means and it especially doesn't play well with time-sensitive adventures at low levels when characters can gain a few levels relatively quickly. There are solutions, but each has its own pros and cons.

I prefer characters going from 1-15 in a couple of years game-time. That's a lot more narratively acceptable than in 2 months you're literally one of the most powerful humanoids on the planet.

To address difficulty, it's really a lot of different layers and some of the knobs have to be turned constantly. However, one of the MAJOR elements to 5e being too easy is that players don't fear being knocked to 0 because there's absolutely no consequence for it.

In my game, getting knocked unconscious is an automatic 2 levels of Exhaustion (stacks w/ all other Exhaustion, including itself) and you get a lingering injury (randomly determined as minor to life-threatening) that is caused by the damage type that put you at zero. I.e. Fire damage took you out? Now you've got 3rd degree burns and the consequences associated with it. The injuries can be healed and sometimes they're not much more than an annoyance, but they can be super serious and that's what I want. I only want the players to understand that there's always the possibility they could get fucked up by getting 0'd, but I don't want it to be so oppressive they feel like they're running a real-life simulator where they spend more time in a bed healing than adventuring. The 1-2 punch of Exhaustion and Lingering Injuries make combat a lot more of a decision. I also don't clear death save failures on a long rest. You only get to remove 1 failed death save per LR.

I've also tweaked the Rest system where a Long Rest only heals half max HP rather than full.

Basically, you try to play the delicate balance of giving the players enough resources where they will continue to push ahead rather than get all defeatist and game the system by taking two Long Rests in subsequent days before continuing on. BTW, if you're a DM and allow stupid shit like back-to-back LRs to happen, you need your DM card revoked.
 
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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I absolutely hate this too.

I try to address it by making lengthy downtime activities so attractive that players really want to spend several abstract months between adventures to work on side projects. For groups that enjoy it, I also enforce a rule that leveling requires (progressively more lengthy) training. Training-to-level isn't a perfect system by any means and it especially doesn't play well with time-sensitive adventures at low levels when characters can gain a few levels relatively quickly. There are solutions, but each has its own pros and cons.

I prefer characters going from 1-15 in a couple of years game-time. That's a lot more narratively acceptable than in 2 months you're literally one of the most powerful humanoids on the planet.

To address difficulty, it's really a lot of different layers and some of the knobs have to be turned constantly. However, one of the MAJOR elements to 5e being too easy is that players don't fear being knocked to 0 because there's absolutely no consequence for it.

In my game, getting knocked unconscious is an automatic 2 levels of Exhaustion (stacks w/ all other Exhaustion, including itself) and you get a lingering injury (randomly determined as minor to life-threatening) that is caused by the damage type that put you at zero. I.e. Fire damage took you out? Now you've got 3rd degree burns and the consequences associated with it. The injuries can be healed and sometimes they're not much more than an annoyance, but they can be super serious and that's what I want. I only want the players to understand that there's always the possibility they could get fucked up by getting 0'd, but I don't want it to be so oppressive they feel like they're running a real-life simulator where they spend more time in a bed healing than adventuring. The 1-2 punch of Exhaustion of and Lingering Injuries make combat a lot more of a decision. I also don't clear death save failures on a long rest. It's you only remove 1 failed death save per.

I've also tweaked the Rest system where a long rest only heals half max hp rather than full.

Basically, you try to play the delicate balance of giving the players enough resources where they will continue to push ahead rather than get all defeatist and game the system by taking two Long Rests in subsequent days before continuing on. BTW, if you're a DM and allow stupid shit like back-to-back LRs to happen, you need your DM card revoked.
we just started doing something sort of similar... we're still tweaking it but it's basically that we have an amount of points equal to our con+lvl (so it's relatively low, but does progress) and certain things cost those points like death saves, being crit, setting off a trap, etc and you get 1 point back per long rest. if you get to zero you die outright. the idea is that adventuring takes a toll on your body that isn't just remedied by a single night's sleep.

exhaustion is... i don't really know how i feel about it. it's a minor nuisance at best until all of a sudden it's completely and overly debilitating. one or two levels really isn't that bad and you're pretty much fine the next day. but anything beyond that almost makes your character unplayable and even if you can manage to still play your character it's definitely not any fun, so who cares. i guess it's sort of a good warning system in that sense? disadvantage on skill checks isn't HORRIBLE but it's a good reminder to take it easy...

so i sort of worry about giving players 2 levels of exhaustion for any one thing... and then for giving it to them for getting downed also seems like it makes the early game way more dangerous than later game when you have more hp and skills to help avoid getting to 0 in the first place. how long have you been doing that? do you find that's the case? in one of the games we just started, we've played 3 sessions and one of the players has been taken down to zero 3 times (twice in the same night in different encounters) already due specifically to the dm rolling crits on him. we're lvl 1 so it doesn't take much, you know?
 

bigmark268

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Yeah I started buying them right before the one expansion with 1 Huge mini in each pack came out (War of the dragon queen I think). I just left EB games as Assistant Mgr to a corporate gig for 12.50 an hour. It was sad but I felt like I was balling at the time.

Kind of wish I didn't look at the prices though because my kids are gonna be all over these: Tiamat is $140, mammoth rider $80, purple worm and dracolich are $55. Makes up for all the Magic and Pokemon cards I lost I guess.

Now I got the itch. I saw Reaper Bones minis. I might have to buy some of those to placate myself without spending a lot of money.
Dude if you want reaper stuff hold out till they do another kickstsrter. You get a metric shit ton of minis for cents each.
 
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