The E-cig Thread

Dexz_sl said:

The Warez

Before you ask, Yes the Provari is worth every penny !

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Looks like a merger between a light saber and a Japanese pearl diver. What makes it so special, dexz?

Izo_sl said:

Looks like a merger between a light saber and a Japanese pearl diver. What makes it so special, dexz?

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Quality and Consistency to be short.

I've owned and tried many different mechanical and vv/vw mods over the past months. The pic in my last post has a Vamo V2 that lasted about 4 months then started to misfire. The Vamo V3 is brand new and has a voltage issue (waiting on RMA from Fastech) I've also tried a few Innokin products and a handful of mech mods. The Vamo for what you pay is a decent vv/vw mod, $35.00 from fastech, problems is the inconsistent Chinese production, combined with the (at best) 45 day warranty. Bud of mine just got a V3 and it works just fine.

Provari is almost 100% American made, tight quality control, 1 year + warranty and great customer service department. That sounds good on paper, the bottom line to vapors is the consistent vape quality through the entire battery charge, among other reasons.

Some Information / Reviews
This guy puts out some honest lengthy reviews on many vaping products.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-lXupJEiLU

Provape
http://www.provape.com/provari-varia...ecig-s/36.htm#

ECF Provari Forum
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provari/

Favorite Juice Vendor
http://www.mtbakervapor.com/

Dexz_sl said:

The Warez

Before you ask, Yes the Provari is worth every penny !

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I love MBV prices but I really don't think their juices are top quality. I still smoke their grapefruit and ectocooler from time to time but had to move on. Have you tried heathers heavenly vapor?

riptorn_sl said:

I love MBV prices but I really don't think their juices are top quality. I still smoke their grapefruit and ectocooler from time to time but had to move on. Have you tried heathers heavenly vapor?

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I have not.

I've tried Alice in Vapeland, good juices, 100% VG thou, which I don't really like.

A few from Gotvapes ( Flux brand) Mt dew Red alert is good.

Next on my list to try out is TastyVapor and a local shop called The Refined Vapor, one more I can't recall atm. < Tastyjuice D3lusional>

Mt Baker may not have the "best" but they are consistent from order to order, that I can really appreciate. As you can see a 256ml of Thug Juice in the background, so far my favorite. Extreme Ice and Spearmint coming in a close 2nd.

I like to support local vape shops but places like Create-A-Cig are very inconsistent with flavoring

Not sure if this was listed in the previous pages or not.

HongKong Post is starting to enfoce a law over 3 years old pertaining to the shipments of batteries and a few other items.

If your in need of few spares or to replace older batts move quick b/c prices from US vendors are starting to increase.

Sticky post on FT about it
http://www.fasttech.com/forums/vaper...il-services-10

1 month ago 2 panasonic CGR18650's cost $10.00 now they are harder to find and almost double that.

While I'm here, link to a great deal finding blog/website for vapors
http://vaporjoe.blogspot.com/

So how far are you in the quitting process, Dexz? Do you still vape nicotine? Smoke from time to time, perhaps?

It's going well, started out using e-liquid that contained 24mg/ml and now down to 11/12 mg/ml, first of the year I will step it down again to 6mg/ml.

I have not smoked a traditional cig in almost 2 years, The smell of those things gag me.

Dexz_sl said:

It's going well, started out using e-liquid that contained 24mg/ml and now down to 11/12 mg/ml, first of the year I will step it down again to 6mg/ml.

I have not smoked a traditional cig in almost 2 years, The smell of those things gag me.

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Good for you. It's funny how quickly the smell of smoke and particles in your clothes gets annoying So, you've used nicotine e-vapers for more than 2 years instead, yes? Have you noticed any adverse effects, such as tremor, mood swings, tinnitus or similar indication of nerve poisoning? Have you had any spill accidents so far? How do you store the fluids - do you have kids or pets for instance?

mkopec_sl said:

Why would you be getting nicotine poisoning from vaping if you have not from smoking? With smoking, the nicotine (normally a liquid at room temperature) is carried on tiny particles of ash. With vaping the carrier is a liquid (small droplets of PG or VG in which the nicotine is disolved (the visible fog of recondensed vapor). Not only are the liquid droplets larger than the ash (smoke) particles, but it is harder for the nicotine to 'escape' the liquid that the ash (the nicotine is sitting on the outside of the ash, so to speak).

A further factor comes into play - the smaller size of the particles in analog smoke mean that (much) more of the nicotine reaches the lungs, where passage to the bloodstream is far easier (the barrier is much less here because the haemoglobin of red blood cells in the blood needs to be able to latch onto oxygen from the air; with digestion, absorption of sugars, say, needs to be slower as blood sugar levels need to be tightly controlled, so absorbtion in the mouth is much slower).

* Smoke particle size : 0.1 to 1 micron; PG mist droplet size : 1 to 5 micron

Either way you are going to vape until you are satisfied. Just like you smoke to be satisfied. Just because its "vaping" does not mean you are somehow getting more nicotine.

And you are not spilling the shit all over like you think, I mean come on. I also have kids, one is 9 and the other is 11. and yeah they were interested in the E-cigs when I first got them, but I told them it was dangerous and under no circumstances are they allowed to touch it. I showed it to them, I even let them touch it and tld them that its my way of stopping smoking. And now, they could give a rats ass about it. But I still store it away from sight. I mean you have to use common sense.

Where do you store your alcohol so your kids dont get into it? How bout bleach? Or other harmfull household cleaners. Its the same shit here. USE COMMON SENSE.

You keep on asking the same shit here. Yeah the shit is poison, but so is Alcohol, Bleach, Ammonia, Draino, Antifreeze. Do you leave puddles of this stuff lying around so your pets or kids can frolic in? did you have any spill accidents?

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To be fair, the question was not directed at you. I asked this guy, whom so far seem fairly okay with my questions, whether he has any different view on it - who knows it might spawn some interesting view points beyond the simple questions. To me, you seem super biased towards the product with less regard for the dangers. That's fine. Not what I was looking for, again, though.

So.

Why would one get nicotine poisoning from vaping if not from smoking? The obvious answer is, you yourself can mix much higher concentrations of nicotine fluid. This enables you to be the master of dosages easily damaging or lethal. That requires a bit more effort with cigarettes for an adult - you'd have to eat the tobacco essentially. Kids do not have the same tolerance you do for instance.

Your ideas on how nicotine is administered, as well as the uptake mechanism are super simplistic and not at all covering what is known. Let me educate you on common paths - contrasted to existing smoking cessation aids:
Skin - directly across this first line barrier - think patches and fluid
Lungs - alveolar uptake - think aerosols from inhalers and fluid (as you singled out and based your flawed argument on)
Mucus membranes - your gums, mouth, nose, throat - think melter tabs, inhalers, sprays and fluid
There are more, naturally.

All of these paths have different pharmacokinetic properties, sure, which end up modifying how much, how fast, and how long a given dosage nicotine can make ligand-receptor interaction, and thus have the effect the user wants. Then follows the means of the chemical bond - how nicotine is carried - what it's chemically bound to, and what the possible chemical products and intermediates are. What happens with it when it's administered, heated etc etc. The whole process is enormously complex, and expensive to measure. This combined with knowledge of target receptors of nicotine is why we measure serum values, blood work in essence, of nicotine over time in numerous subjects to establish pharmacokinetic properties of a given substance and means of administration.

So: 1) You CAN very easily mix a high dosage, a toxic and or lethal dosage. There is no industry control over what you mix yourself, nor what's in them to start with. I understand you don't feel this is random. Compare to the very exact nature of western pharmaceutical drug production plants.
and 2) The uptake mechanism of vaped nicotine fluid is much more refined than that of solid bound nicotine. The reason a cigarette works so very well, is, naturally, because the cigarette industry has refined this process and added many substances to enhance this. That does not translate to vaping being less dangerous in terms of nicotine dosage. Far from it. Any pharma savy person can tell you that - or read he above.

The spillings I'm refering to are more common than you think. It's what we see primarily in the ER - when poor products or misuse of them causes leaks. The very acute danger is, that you can very easily uptake nicotine through your skin when it's in fluid form. The concentration is very high, so high we can measure toxic concentrations in the blood after a short while. This is not the case if you take, say an unlit cigarette and put it against your skin. You'd have to digest or smoke them to have an effect. The flux is many fold slower because of the solid bound nature of nicotine in the case of skin contact. Enzyme catalysis in the stomach/intestines are different, naturally. Also the epithelium of the gastrointestinal tract is permeable to a much greater degree than epithelium of the skin. Different compartments, pharmacologically speaking.

When you understand the nicotine fluid is potentially dangerous to various degrees depending on uptake method, including skin contact, and you also understand that pets and kids have far less tolerance for nicotine than adults, you instantly realize storage of your gear is important.

You teaching your 2 kids is great. Much like teaching them not to handle your gun. Regardless, it does not take away the potential hazardous nature of your gear. I hope we can agree here at least. Also, how do you reason with animals, babies or toddlers? Common sense does not apply to them.

Ah yes, storage:
You're making an equivocation fallacy with the cleaning products and alcohol. It's not the 'same shit' in a pharmacological sense. You think dangerous = dangerous also means products behave the same is, well, part of the problem. Some may be solvents, some may be detergents, and most certainly all of them have different properties in all the places that matters here - biochemistry, toxicology and pathophysiology - uptake is just one of the differences. Put simple: The antidote or counter procedure performed at the ER are different. That's because they're not the same. Do you understand? I hope you do now.

That's not saying you shouldn't treat them somewhat alike - keeping them away from children. But it IS saying different substances are not equal in total hazard level. Nicotine is an active poison and it serves no purpose other than keeping you from having withdrawal symptoms. The sooner you realize this, the easier it is to stay objective.

In conclusion: The 'shit' I ask is highly relevant - most here don't know what they're talking about. That includes you, sadly.

Now, can I have the answer from the other guy - the one I asked the question to, Dexz? Thanks.

This is a e-cig thread last time I checked and not a biochemisty debate. The use of big words and long paragraphs bores me. Coming from someone who is educated, I did not come here to debate the pros and cons of e-cigs, be it chemically, biologically or ethically. I poked in with the the preface in my mind its a sound alternative to smoking, both for myself and the people around me. I've has no such problems as since I started, the body tells me when it needs nicotine and when its had to much.

My stay here is strictly to offer help to those vaping or considering switching over. Not to be lured into some ludicrous debate over items that need not be applied to this specific discussion.

Dexz_sl said:

This is a e-cig thread last time I checked and not a biochemisty debate. The use of big words and long paragraphs bores me. Coming from someone who is educated, I did not come here to debate the pros and cons of e-cigs, be it chemically, biologically or ethically. I poked in with the the preface in my mind its a sound alternative to smoking, both for myself and the people around me. I've has no such problems as since I started, the body tells me when it needs nicotine and when its had to much.

My stay here is strictly to offer help to those vaping or considering switching over. Not to be lured into some ludicrous debate over items that need not be applied to this specific discussion.

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Thanks for your straight forward response.
We've been over whether or not vaping is the sound alternative to, say existing smoking cessation devices, it's made out to be in this thread - and what standards one could use to come to that conclusion. I personally find it interesting what others think or don't concerning this - and how they reason. I don't mind if you're not here to contribute - but you did respond to initial questions. I would have hoped my simple questions would spawn some interesting, perhaps challenging points. Whether anyone wishes to dive into absurdities like mkopec is entirely up to them.

I would ask you, given your frame of offering help - How do you, if you're not critical to the product you're using, help others? Or do you not consider this important? Why is that?

Side note: can I ask in what field, when you say 'educated'?

Thanks again

Some links that showed up on MBV's Facebook yesterday.

Study on indoor air quality, traditional cigs Vs E-cigs
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...78.2012.724728

Australia considering a ban on traditional cigs, interesting
http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/as...igarettes.html

There's no way a ban on traditional cigs would ever happen here, at least not anytime soon. I think just allowing the sale of e-cigs and nicotine juice would be a huge step forward, personally. There seems to be a lot of interest in them but most people for whatever reason aren't willing to go to the effort of ordering online.