The E-cig Thread

Just ordered the provari kit. Now where's the best place to get that sweet, sweet nicotine juice?

mkopec_sl said:

See the OP for some links...

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Scratch the original question, I'm pretty sure I want to order the nicotine solution from wizardlabs and then get some various flavorings. Is there information on roughly how many cigarettes/packs are in each size? Like how many cigarettes are in the 120ml size?

I'm assuming it's fairly simple to mix the flavor into the nicotine juice, looks like all I need is one of the DIY starter kits there which is the syringe, needle, pipette, mixing station and vials. Is this right?

Has anyone used the wizardlabs base nic juice? How does it compare to others you may have tried?

Sorry, I edited the original question probably as you were typing your response haha.

Thanks again, so if 2ml is roughly a pack a day based on anecdotal evidence (which is about what I smoke) and I can get 120ml of an 18mg/ml premix solution for ~7 bucks this is a no brainer. Jesus christ that's a lot of money saved (after the initial hit of the $200 spent on the provari kit). Is it stupid to buy that much in one shot? Does this stuff go bad?

Mixing the juice yourself is the way to go in the future. With you just starting out now, I recommend getting a few 10mls of various ejuice from stores just to try out and get comfortable first.

I brought a 100mls of 72mg/ml of nicotine base for mixing and that is going to last me the whole year with me vaping around 2.5mls a day at 6mg nicotine strength.

Also, bear in mind that if you are mixing yourself, you will need to do some preplanning as don't expect to vape some juices straight away after mixing as some flavours require 'steeping' or 'maturing' for a week or two to really bring the flavour out.

I usually mix around 2 weeks in advance of what I want to use so I always have a supply of juices that is steeping and to fall back on later.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'll wait til I get the unit and then go to a local shop and buy some smaller vials of premixed PG or VG and combinations and see what I like the best then go from there.

Superhiro_sl said:

So, after work today I'm going to check out a smoke shop in my neighborhood.

p.s. fuck Izo

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It's cool you're trying to make a change. It's obvious you're not doing it because you're worried about health, but because you're tired of the harassment. It's hard being an addict - all part of the job description. Hope you succeed in whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. Get back to us real soon with news - Always looking forward to that

Neki_sl said:

Okay

I used to smoke cigarettes, about 10 a day for about 15 years. Tried nicotine patches many times to quit but didn't work. Switched over to use E-cigs approximately 3 months ago and haven't touched a cigarette in that time. Started with 18mg/ml of nicotine in the liquid and now down to 6mg with the aim of eventually going down to 0mg. I mix my own juices.

E-cig is a device which is an alternative to smoking. Some use it as a way to replace smoking traditional cigarettes by still satisfy the nicotine addiction but without the thousands of harmful chemicals found in a normal cigarette. Although more long term study needs to be done on E-cigs and health effects, it is hard to deny that at present time, E-cigs are the lesser of two evils when compared to cigarettes.

There are those who look to use the device to stop smoking and eventually be free of nicotine dependence. Everyone is different so it is very possible that this method wouldn't work for you but there are also many people (like me) who find it a more successful way towards stopping smoking than other methods presently on the market.

Would I recommend someone to E-cigs if they have never smoked before? No
Would I recommend someone to switch to E-cigs if they are smoking now? Yes
Would vaping E-cigs eventually lead to nicotine independence? No unless you are actively making an effort trying to use it for such.

Make no mistake, E-cigs is just another method to deliver nicotine into your body to satisfy an addiction. I used it as a way to try and wean myself off this addiction and it is proving successful thus far.

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A fairly nice summary, albeit blatantly and terminally wrong on key points. Thanks for the input, Neki

You were, what a physician would consider, a light smoker, aka <20/day for 15 years, making you pack year score = 10/20 x 15 = 7.5. We've been over why it's easy to switch to vapors compared to existing nicotine cessation products.

It is not hard to deny e-cigs are bad. When cancer is concerned there is no lower threshold. You're not less dead of a lung sarcoma with either. You're applying your common sense and not science here. Getting rid of airway irritants does not mean you're more healthy in this perspective. Carcinogens exist in your precious e-cig as well as in cigarettes. Read the WHO report I linked.
More long term studies of the e-cig may prove the e-cig a useful tool for nicotine cessation, sure. It won't happen til we have the basics under control - dosage, administration consistency etc etc. So far the WHO says this is not so. How you arrive at a different conclusion is anyone's guess. Perhaps there is a nobel prize waiting for you? Who knows.

Success rate is not measured in gut feelings. It's typically quantified, by physicians and scientists, as 1 year smoke free. Nicotine likewise - It follows the later takes even longer since you're gradually decreasing dosage.

WHO for reference:
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publication...209557_eng.pdf

I've read the latestWHO statementand they advised that the reason they are against it's use is because there is lack of regulation and scientific evidence to prove their safety and effectiveness. They disproved that E-cigs work as nicotine cessation aid because there is insufficient scientific studies at the moment to prove it as such.

I would agree with some form of regulation on E-liquids since you cannot always trust the label. This is why I mix my own liquids so I know exactly the level of nicotine I am putting in myself.

Sure more long term studies is needed for prove on nicotine cessation. However, if you want quantifiable numbers, I personally know 8 people off the top of my head that have switched from smoking->E-cigs->nicotine independence and that is not counting the several people in this thread that said it helped them in leading towards cessation. That is how I got to start using E-cigs actually. One of those 8 people is my close friend who used to smoke 1 pack a day and recommended E-cigs to me by giving me his old kit since he didn't use it anymore. He has been nicotine free for 9-10 months now. I call that a success.

With my decreasing nicotine dosage but no more than 3ml of liquid used per day, Izo, do you agree that I am gradually lessening my reliance on nicotine and as a result, so far, working as a method towards nicotine independence?

I have never once said that E-cigs are completely safe and you would be foolish to think that.

Are E-cigs 100% healthy? I really doubt it
Is it less harmful than cigarettes? Most definitely Yes

As I have mentioned before, I have tried patches and gum which didn't work. I tried the prescribed drug Champix but the side effects stopped me from carrying on using it.

I am trying E-cigs now and so far it's working.

Will it eventually get me off nicotine? Don't know but hopefully Yes and at least it is not as harmful as smoking cigarettes.

Yes unregulated liquids might contain carcinogens but to what degree? Are E-cigs 'bad'? Probably but so are many other things.

Izo, May I ask do you drink plastic bottled water? Do you drink Soda? Do you eat processed meat? Do you eat fast food? Sweets and microwaved popcorn? Do you buy plastic wrapped food in the Supermarket? Do you eat non-organic fruit and veg? Do you use cooking utensils that uses non-stick like Teflon? How about products such as shampoo, deodorants, shower gel?

Guess what they have in common?

Yep, they all contain carcinogens and have a risk of causing cancer from a range of chemicals and pesticides.

Do you consider all these 'bad' too?

If as you said 'When cancer is concerned there is no lower threshold' and with you being so health concious, then I would assume you too would not use any of the items I've listed and advise all you know not to as well? (because Izo loves smilies)

Don't get me wrong, I am not recommending E-cigs as the end all and be all. Given the choice, I rather not be using them by not started smoking at all but the beauty of hindsight eh?

I am just saying that it is a alternative to smoking. I don't go flashing my E-cig around and treat it the same as when I used to smoke (like not using in public places such as restaurants, bars, shops etc). I am commenting what works forme. If smoker's are looking to quit, I would advise them to look for the 'proven' methods such as nicotine patches, gum, sprays and drugs like Champix as well as E-cigs.

Izo_sl said:

Right. For the 1 millionth time. Here we go again:
1) Nicotine is carcinogenic and addictive.
2) Withdrawal symptoms and drug tolerance are linked to relapse.
3) You build tolerance with exposure.
4) Dosage and application scheme matters greatly for successful nicotine cessation.

There is a reason gradual and consistent dosage lowering is more successful than simply quitting. This is best achieved by using products that are well documented, thoroughly tested (long term studies f.inst.), and precisely dosed. When I say 'best' it's implied it's built on massive double blinded RCT's on the products vs placebo - aka the gold standard of testing whether shit works or not - aka is it better after the nominal standard of 1 year: are you a smoker or are you smoke free?
This is not so with e-cigs - you're not guaranteed a specific dosage, nor is there a consistency to nicotine exposure inter- and intravape. The cognitive dissonance is you feel in control with the e-cig. The device and the juice it's not something a physician has forced on you, and most non-vapors don't know what it is you're doing with all the various gizmo's -tanks, fluids, shit. It empowers you on a false basis, and it all adds to the cognitive dissonance. This is also one of many reasons why it's easier to 'switch' from cigarettes to vapors, than from cigarettes to any cessation product. We're not even touching on the feel, smell or smoke like nature of the product - or even the vape itself. As well as this may sound to anyone wishing to quit smoking, there is a back side to this. An obvious reason why you might relapse from having used the vapor as both cessation device and recreation device is precisely that - the dichotomous usage. However much you feel you're in control, your brain associates the device with both. When you're 'feeling low' or you're otherwise vulnerable, you might be tempted to use it with nicotine again. This is classic conditioning and a variant of referred pain. Google Pavlov's dog if you want more insight into how psychology affects your physiology - aka the dogs salivary glands are activated by the mere sound of the bell.

Ask any meth addict when he's 'sick' whether he's more more motivated for quitting or scoring more dope this instant. Ask him if he associates, say, a needle with his 'junk' or simply yet another physician's tool. Mmmmm?

The conditioning is one of many reasons it's not great to associate a cessation product with recreational usage. With this is mind, it should be blatantly obvious why nicotine cessation products are, for the most part, somewhere between marketable and directly silly looking (aka the plastic inhaler for instance). I hope it's more obvious as to why e-cigs with their customized appearances and functions aren't all bliss. A good cessation device will focus on you switching from tobacco/nicotine abuse to nicotine abuse only (the product) and help you get rid of the nicotine abuse in a safe and balanced pace as to avoid relapse.

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Serious question: do you have any personal experience with addiction of any kind?

Neki_sl said:

I've read the latestWHO statementand they advised that the reason they are against it's use is because there is lack of regulation and scientific evidence to prove their safety and effectiveness. They disproved that E-cigs work as nicotine cessation aid because there is insufficient scientific studies at the moment to prove it as such.

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You're reading the latest statement, yes. Not the latest compiled in-depth publications with source links etc. That's what I linked to you earlier. They're found here:
WHO | WHO Study Group on Tobacco Product Regulation (TobReg)

Neki_sl said:

I would agree with some form of regulation on E-liquids since you cannot always trust the label. This is why I mix my own liquids so I know exactly the level of nicotine I am putting in myself.

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The problem is futher back in the supply chain - aka there is not s guaranteed nicotine concentration in the liquids, inter or intravape. This could be achieved by strict pharmaceutical production by respectable companies. This is not the case at the moment. You mixing what could be anyones guess as to concentration does not mean you're in control of the dosage. In short you don't know the exact level of nicotine you're putting in yourself - cognitive dissonance from being the 'mixer'. Exact level is required for optimal cessation process and minimization of cancer risks. This is one of many reasons no sane FDA has approved the fluids or vapors as NRT. As the WHO statement says "The dose of delivered nicotine is also unknown. It is suspected that the delivered dose varies notably by product, which contain nicotine in various quantities and concentrations.". This is blatantly obvious to anyone with pharmacological knowledge - therapeutic window, dosage, compartments etc. Physicians know this. The FDA knows this. Laymen usually don't, sadly.

Neki_sl said:

Sure more long term studies is needed for prove on nicotine cessation. However, if you want quantifiable numbers, I personally know 8 people off the top of my head that have switched from smoking->E-cigs->nicotine independence and that is not counting the several people in this thread that said it helped them in leading towards cessation. That is how I got to start using E-cigs actually. One of those 8 people is my close friend who used to smoke 1 pack a day and recommended E-cigs to me by giving me his old kit since he didn't use it anymore. He has been nicotine free for 9-10 months now. I call that a success.

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You realize of course that 8 anecdotes does not constitute a scientific setting that's generalizable or even remotely considered evidence based. The report I linked, publication 955, has a whole section explaining what would be needed for E-vapors to qualify for NRTs. It's point 2.8 specifically:
"In summary, claims for the effectiveness of ENDS for smoking cessation and other health effects must be substantiated by rigorous studies of pharmacokinetics, trials of safety and efficacy and review and approval by major drug regulatory authorities. The types of data and studies that would be required include a complete listing of the chemicals used in ENDS products; a listing and reporting of the concentrations of chemicals delivered to the consumer; comparisons of the effect of ENDS on smoking cessation with that of approved NRTs and placebo; and the adverse effects of these products."

Neki_sl said:

With my decreasing nicotine dosage but no more than 3ml of liquid used per day, Izo, do you agree that I am gradually lessening my reliance on nicotine and as a result, so far, working as a method towards nicotine independence?

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That would depend on several factors, which are non-reliable - part of the FDA critique - the device's distribution efficacy, the concentration of the liquid x the volume consume = a priori nicotine uptake. Do you want me to make a guess on this non-solid basis? Relatively, if you're using the exact same bottle, assuming no sedimentation, one could assume you're decreasing your nicotine uptake, sure. That's in relative terms. It's impossible to guess to the absolute dosage without analyzing your liquid and device efficacy.
This can be estimated with great accuracy in existing nicotine cessation products, as their efficacy is constant and dosage is guaranteed by respectable pharmaceutical plants. Do you know where your nicotine liquid is manufactured?

Neki_sl said:

I have never once said that E-cigs are completely safe and you would be foolish to think that.

Are E-cigs 100% healthy? I really doubt it Is it less harmful than cigarettes? Most definitely Yes

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Actually e-vapors have been found to be very unsafe so far. Read report 955, and take notice of all point 3.2 and 3.3. The carcinogens found the liquids alone, notably carcinogens usually found only in tobacco. That should give you a hint to the so called safety of vaping vs smoking. From the WHO report point 3.3: "Tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNA) are formed from tobacco alkaloids and nitrosating agents, such as nitrite. They are found only in tobacco products. Seven TSNA have been detected in smokeless tobacco.". Here is a quote from the who statement: "The safety of ENDS has not been scientifically demonstrated. The potential risks they pose for the health of users remain undetermined. Furthermore, scientific testing indicates that the products vary widely in the amount of nicotine and other chemicals they deliver and there is no way for consumers to find out what is actually delivered by the product they have purchased.". Compare with hardcore drug abusers. They don't ask questions as to what they pump in their veins. Why is it e-vapors share this trait, I wonder? Cognitive dissonance.

Neki_sl said:

As I have mentioned before, I have tried patches and gum which didn't work. I tried the prescribed drug Champix but the side effects stopped me from carrying on using it.

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We've been over the cognitive dissonance in previous post, as well as the dichotomous usage of the vapor. As to what is working and what is not, you're not really taking all the possible detrimental factors into account. Nothing is guaranteed, proven efficacy does not mean that each and every one using existing cessation products will succeed. It means the existing products are tested vs placebo for efficacy - in a scientific setting - and it shows it's better beyond statistical anomaly. Quitting is not easy. It matters how you plan it, how motivated you are, how consistent you are, what counseling you utilize, mental state, other drugs used, family crisis etc etc etc.
As to Champix alone, it has a 1 year cessation rate of app. 22% vs placebo, possibly the single most effective drug. However, the same efficacy can be achieved with patches + an additional cessation aid like inhalers, gum or sprays. Serious adverse effects have been reported while using Champix, sure, but they're not proven to be causal. The same symptoms are observed cold turkey - depression, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts, myocardial infarcts. This info is from respectable sources in medicine - cochrane library and US department if Health and Human services, specifically here (pubmed so you at least can read the abstract, if you don't have academic access)
Treating tobacco use and dependence: 2008 Update. Clinical Practice Guideline.
Antidepressants for smoking cessation. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007
Nicotine receptor partial agonists for smoking cessation. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2008
In short, you're dismissing the existing products too easy in favor of a different product on a subjective basis. That's not how the efficacy of products are established. Science, baby.

Neki_sl said:

I am trying E-cigs now and so far it's working.

Will it eventually get me off nicotine? Don't know but hopefully Yes and at least it is not as harmful as smoking cigarettes.

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Your definition of working is different than mine. Functioning, sure. Efficient remains to be seen. As stated above, you're wrong in assuming e-vapors are netto healthier - far from it.

Neki_sl said:

Yes unregulated liquids might contain carcinogens but to what degree? Are E-cigs 'bad'? Probably but so are many other things.

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To such a degree that the WHO statement specifically says "The safety of ENDS has not been scientifically demonstrated.". It's safe to say this is more credible than random person gut feelings. It's a slippery slope argument to say one thing is bad, so is another. Everything is not the same. There are different mechanisms of harm - patophysiology, pharmacology etc. A car is not the same as a gun, nor is a chimney the same as an exhaust pipe. Details matters. Research matters. Knowledge matters. Gut feelings and 'common sense' does not, in this context. Science has proven this over and over, and it's especially true when we're dealing with synthetics - humans are not evolutionary equipped to make judgement calls here. A single aromatic composition could make you think this was all ice cream and yummy. For instance, you'd not know the difference for 20 years inhaling a single asbestos grain either. But it does give you lung carcinoma with a 100% certainty. How does that correlate with your common sense? It doesn't.

Neki_sl said:

Izo, May I ask do you drink plastic bottled water? Do you drink Soda? Do you eat processed meat? Do you eat fast food? Sweets and microwaved popcorn? Do you buy plastic wrapped food in the Supermarket? Do you eat non-organic fruit and veg? Do you use cooking utensils that uses non-stick like Teflon? How about products such as shampoo, deodorants, shower gel?

Guess what they have in common?

Yep, they all contain carcinogens and have a risk of causing cancer from a range of chemicals and pesticides.

Do you consider all these 'bad' too?

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Sigh. More slippery slope, equivocation fallacies and cognitive dissonance. We've been over this before in this very thread, read the thread. Some seem to think a loaded gun and the liquid is the same, in that the subjects share a very broad definition of 'dangerous'. This is usually where I tell people to open a book and stop being stupid, as these 'arguments' borders being asinine. What defines if anything is safe is highly transparent to the every day Joe - FDA and other control organs have your back, mostly. Dosage matters - concentration x exposure. Uptake mechanisms matter. Pathological mechanisms matter. If everything dangerous was equally dangerous or dangerous in the same way, do you think we'd have different ways of classifying, treating, researching or even viewing the world around us? Did you not learn about weighted numbers in grade school math? I'm willing to write if off as naivety or ignorance. But seriously - your reasoning is simply not how stuff works. Mkay? Mkay.

Neki_sl said:

If as you said 'When cancer is concerned there is no lower threshold' and with you being so health concious, then I would assume you too would not use any of the items I've listed and advise all you know not to as well?

(because Izo loves smilies)

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No, you're being asinine and making multiple equivocation fallacies. You don't understand what no lower threshold means in this context. I'd ask you tolook up Knudson's 2 hit model, but it would require basic knowledge of genetics, histology, physiology and pathology. Try anyway. I'd post a smiley, but the board has a max of 6 in a post, sigh. Yours used up the quota. Sad panda, hehe.

Neki_sl said:

Don't get me wrong, I am not recommending E-cigs as the end all and be all. Given the choice, I rather not be using them by not started smoking at all but the beauty of hindsight eh?

I am just saying that it is a alternative to smoking. I don't go flashing my E-cig around and treat it the same as when I used to smoke (like not using in public places such as restaurants, bars, shops etc). I am commenting what works forme. If smoker's are looking to quit, I would advise them to look for the 'proven' methods such as nicotine patches, gum, sprays and drugs like Champix as well as E-cigs.

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Then there's some hope for you after all, hehe. No, seriously I do hope for the best for each and every one of your fellow addicts. Addiction is a bitch. I know first hand and professionally. More power to you for trying rid yourself of it, I applaud that. And thank you so much for the reply, appreciated.

Azrayne_sl said:

Serious question: do you have any personal experience with addiction of any kind?

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Serious answer: What does that have to do with anything? Do I need cancer to know about cancer or even treat it? If you want to know if I've been in a situation relevant to the thread - smoking, quitting - then I've already answered that before. Yes, I was a smoker. Yes, I battled with the addiction. Yes, I'm now smoke free, nicotine free and very much alive. Does that answer your question?

Tuco_sl said:

Izo give it a rest.

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I'm being asked questions - e-cigs are serious business. No fair

fuck off