The Elder Scrolls Online

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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He's being sarcastic
smile.png
I hope.

Nameplates! Thank god they came to their senses. Preordered.
Because you couldn't see what what going on.

Don't confuse me saying, "This is a good change." with, "Now that they've made this change this game will be good."
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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I don't give a fuck about nameplates, what bothers me is the entire PVP rank, alliance point bullshit system.

Have fun farming alliance points...maybe there will be tokens for gear rewards too!
While I have a lot of issues with TESO, this isn't one of them. I think having valid rewards for PVP and mirroring the Realm Rank system from DAOC are both good things.

The nameplates thing was common sense. It's hard to get excited over something that never should have been up for debate.
 

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
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I think having valid rewards for PVP and mirroring the Realm Rank system from DAOC are both good things.
I've always felt that the reward for PVP should be built into the gameworld itself if you're going to bother having PVP at all. And I don't mean having a number of contestable POIs within discrete PVP areas either. Then you're simply playing on a glorified soccer pitch and any type of points system is just another way of keeping score. So here we have a 'new' MMO with what really boils down to 'old' ideas and mechanics. I hope you have fun grinding a bajillion points on your quest to be EMPRAH OF TESO though, LOL.


The nameplates thing was common sense. It's hard to get excited over something that never should have been up for debate.
I only think it's common sense if you've already made the assumption that you actually need to have names visible in PVP in the first place, which is a terrible argument as that still leaves the "why" of it unanswered. Oh, I wouldn't be against name visibility for your own faction mind you, but why do you need to see enemy names anyways? At most I could see an argument for the ability to coordinate, but that's actually an interesting debate in that from one point of view players already have too much ability to coordinate and focus fire as it is. Functionality like /assist is fucking terrible for PVP since you can likely end up with two opposing forced simply trying to alpha strike the opposing team down through an MA faster than their opponent can alpha strike them. In small scale PVP it's not a problem really, but get an appreciable number of people together...and yeah. Take that to an extreme like EVE...

So let's assume that you scratch the ability to assist, just for arguments sake - then you're back to having to call out targets. Which on paper I don't care about one way or the other. But without names, I just can't see that as being a paradigm that couldn't work. You'd probably end up with "Kill that faggot pallie with the T6 helmet" but honestly I can't see it really affecting much of anything besides battle coordination. Which could actually be a goal depending on how you want to design the PVP - people would have to 'fight in the moment' and make educated guesses so to speak, or fight off the more immediate threats that they see, rather than fighting /assist battles or tabbing through targets until they find the last name that was called out.

That's part of why I was chuckling at the"nameplates were a huge problem"and"it's common sense"- because neither are necessarily true unless you've already decided to embrace something similar to the existing targeting paradigm. To my mind neither is true because I don't necessarily see PVP without names being unworkable, just different.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I've always felt that the reward for PVP should be built into the gameworld itself if you're going to bother having PVP at all. And I don't mean having a number of contestable POIs within discrete PVP areas either. Then you're simply playing on a glorified soccer pitch and any type of points system is just another way of keeping score. So here we have a 'new' MMO with what really boils down to 'old' ideas and mechanics. I hope you have fun grinding a bajillion points on your quest to be EMPRAH OF TESO though, LOL.
Yup. That's why I find Albion Online to be a good example of a desirable PVP system, even if the game is too unfinished to be a desirable MMO.

The game is built around resource control. There's no real levels, just gear and buildings. There are high value resource areas to mine, but you have to defend them against enemies. The reward for winning a fight is the ability to continue to control a resource (and loot from fallen enemies).
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
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Not being able to see or notice names of your own faction in PvP or pve is terrible design and better it was changed. Just the community aspect much less the practical game play issues it creates are enough reasons.

Having names in PvP is also good design. Fear or the lack there of and standing out as you crush your virtual opponents does wonders for the meta game.

Otherwise I agree, the world should be designed to want to hold desirable area while others should desire to knock you off your throne and take it from you. Developers like filling xp lines unfortunately.
 

Blackwulf

N00b
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I've always felt that the reward for PVP should be built into the gameworld itself if you're going to bother having PVP at all. And I don't mean having a number of contestable POIs within discrete PVP areas either. Then you're simply playing on a glorified soccer pitch and any type of points system is just another way of keeping score. So here we have a 'new' MMO with what really boils down to 'old' ideas and mechanics. I hope you have fun grinding a bajillion points on your quest to be EMPRAH OF TESO though, LOL.
My favorite part of DAOC was getting RPs and advancing in realm rank for titles and skills. Glad they are making it this way. I get bored in the COD type warzones where there isn't any incentive as far as character advancement to PVP.

I only think it's common sense if you've already made the assumption that you actually need to have names visible in PVP in the first place, which is a terrible argument as that still leaves the "why" of it unanswered. Oh, I wouldn't be against name visibility for your own faction mind you, but why do you need to see enemy names anyways? At most I could see an argument for the ability to coordinate, but that's actually an interesting debate in that from one point of view players already have too much ability to coordinate and focus fire as it is. Functionality like /assist is fucking terrible for PVP since you can likely end up with two opposing forced simply trying to alpha strike the opposing team down through an MA faster than their opponent can alpha strike them. In small scale PVP it's not a problem really, but get an appreciable number of people together...and yeah. Take that to an extreme like EVE...

So let's assume that you scratch the ability to assist, just for arguments sake - then you're back to having to call out targets. Which on paper I don't care about one way or the other. But without names, I just can't see that as being a paradigm that couldn't work. You'd probably end up with "Kill that faggot pallie with the T6 helmet" but honestly I can't see it really affecting much of anything besides battle coordination. Which could actually be a goal depending on how you want to design the PVP - people would have to 'fight in the moment' and make educated guesses so to speak, or fight off the more immediate threats that they see, rather than fighting /assist battles or tabbing through targets until they find the last name that was called out.
I'm quite sure names will only be visible to same realm. You'll probably see something like *A Nord Captain* or whatever their titles turn out to be if you aren't in the Nord faction. At least that's how DAOC was, and I'll bet TESO is similar.

That's part of why I was chuckling at the"nameplates were a huge problem"and"it's common sense"- because neither are necessarily true unless you've already decided to embrace something similar to the existing targeting paradigm. To my mind neither is true because I don't necessarily see PVP without names being unworkable, just different.
If you played in Cyrodiil in the beta, you'd have realized it was quite a problem. Not so much enemy names, but even just names of your groupmates. Keep fights can be chaotic and if you are trying to fucking point your mouse at everyone running around to figure out who is who, you fairly quickly get frustrated. There were quite a few purists who were arguing that it was important for immersion that names aren't displayed on the screen, while people like me were arguing that at least the option to turn them on and off should exist. I was posting on here to celebrate the victory of common sense. I hope whatever dev was trying to force the no-nameplate issue has drunk a very large cup of shut-the-hell-up.

Merry Christmas, ladies and gents!
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I'm quite sure names will only be visible to same realm. You'll probably see something like *A Nord Captain* or whatever their titles turn out to be if you aren't in the Nord faction. At least that's how DAOC was, and I'll bet TESO is similar.
I hope they change that mechanic. To me, Cyrodill is just another continuation of the war fought between the hardcore PVP guilds that has been going on for the last 15 years. Not knowing that we're killing a familiar enemy is bad enough, not knowing that we're killing a familiar guild is even worse.

Everything I hear about Cyrodill just reminds me that they started off with large-scale factional PVP with sieges and neutered it into a boring anonymous brawl where no one is a winner and no one is a loser. Nothing to be gained or lost and no honor to be won.
 

Erronius

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I hope they change that mechanic. To me, Cyrodill is just another continuation of the war fought between the hardcore PVP guilds that has been going on for the last 15 years. Not knowing that we're killing a familiar enemy is bad enough, not knowing that we're killing a familiar guild is even worse.
Dying your armor to look like a Killer Bee?
 

Draegan_sl

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Devs just need to re-create the RTS environment. A good portion of a PVP game comes from building, creating, holding valuable stuff. The fighting is just 20% of it. You need to be able to build stuff, gather stuff and defend stuff you care about and then attack a position when you're strong (or desperate).

Flipping control points is stupid.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Devs just need to re-create the RTS environment. A good portion of a PVP game comes from building, creating, holding valuable stuff. The fighting is just 20% of it. You need to be able to build stuff, gather stuff and defend stuff you care about and then attack a position when you're strong (or desperate).

Flipping control points is stupid.
For posterity Shadowbane had that:
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And a singleplayer game called Kenshi has something like that:
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And Albion Online has it.
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It can be fun but ultimately the city building aspect is usually reserved for a few people in a group and the rest of the people don't participate. And often building a city must be very expensive or else every jagoff will create an empire like it's minecraft.

My ideal world PVP is a combination of static control points and free-building. I think GW2 got very close with it but it needed the ability to raze structures. You take a supply camp and can either keep it in its normal state, upgrade it to an improved state (GW2 did this very well) or can go all Sherman on that shit and sow salt in the ground. If someone wants to make it usable again they have to invest some effort in rebuilding it.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Well, to be fair Shadowbane never really worked and Albion Online is in Alpha, so no current or working MMO actually has that feature.

GW2 did not do anything really dynamic in regards to PVP or world control, they just were creative with instancing. Their upgrade system likewise could have been so much more. Fuck static control points. Give me Frontiers with open building areas and an FFA format, with organization and diplomacy both rewarded, and poopsocking discouraged.
 

Draegan_sl

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It can be fun but ultimately the city building aspect is usually reserved for a few people in a group and the rest of the people don't participate. And often building a city must be very expensive or else every jagoff will create an empire like it's minecraft.

My ideal world PVP is a combination of static control points and free-building. I think GW2 got very close with it but it needed the ability to raze structures. You take a supply camp and can either keep it in its normal state, upgrade it to an improved state (GW2 did this very well) or can go all Sherman on that shit and sow salt in the ground. If someone wants to make it usable again they have to invest some effort in rebuilding it.
I wouldn't really want to get involved with city building, because like you said, it's for the core group of hardcore people an no one else. I'm thinking more along the lines of Age of Conan where you set up in the xp grinding areas and you protect the people grinding levels but the activity is worth lasting days instead of hours. Instead of grinding PVE levels you're doing something else, or protecting AIs for mining or whatever. I don't really feel like fine tuning the idea, but I think I'm conveying my thought process enough.

Control points are fine, but when structures just flip back and forth on a map lik GW2 it gets stupid. GW2 was just a giant playground and it was instantly boring from a meta point of view.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I wouldn't really want to get involved with city building, because like you said, it's for the core group of hardcore people an no one else. I'm thinking more along the lines of Age of Conan where you set up in the xp grinding areas and you protect the people grinding levels but the activity is worth lasting days instead of hours. Instead of grinding PVE levels you're doing something else, or protecting AIs for mining or whatever. I don't really feel like fine tuning the idea, but I think I'm conveying my thought process enough.

Control points are fine, but when structures just flip back and forth on a map lik GW2 it gets stupid. GW2 was just a giant playground and it was instantly boring from a meta point of view.
I wouldn't say instantly boring, especially from a meta point of view. But from a micro pov it did get tiring destroying/defending the same tower over and over.

And yeah, the early days of AoC where there was one zone to easily level in and very few max level people was a lot of fun. Locking out enemy guilds and defending high resource areas while people leveled was great.
 

Erronius

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I'd prefer more building on an individual level (house, farm, mine, smithy) than having individual players actually build cities per se. At least as far as in established areas. But I'd also like the ability to build in the preexisting cities (fantasy MMO version of EVE's hisec) to be limited so as to encourage players to spread out and build in less secure, more dangerous areas.

Since a lot of players aren't going to be really enamored by having to micromanage building (though that always surprises me given the appeal of single player games built around micromanagement) just have a person be able to set up their own cabin/house/etc and have it complete slowly over time w/o having to actively be involved or even be online.

I just really want there to be a reason to PVP other than to farm honor/points/faction/tokens or to endlessly play tug of war over a bunch of POIs in what is nothing more than a glorified version of capture the flag that never ends. Whether that's done through raids against destructible buildings (would prefer it taking days to outright destroy) or fighting over resources and land, I don't really care.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
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I'd prefer more building on an individual level (house, farm, mine, smithy) than having individual players actually build cities per se.
One of the things I think would work pretty well would be for player activity to influence an established area's building.

We're Heroes (even in games where we're not designated as The One True Savior of the Universe). Where we go, where we operate from, merchants and artisans and bankers flock to offer their services to the rich Heroes. So, basically, any "settled area" can scale from a small outpost (a watchtower and a garden shack) to a small village, a large village, a small city, depending on how many players operate there. Operate being calculated from diverse stuff (how many players have their bind point locally; which guilds have formally designated this as their HQ; merchant activity, amount of time players spend around before heading out for adventure).

Works best, of course, if there's moderately significant travel time. If you can TP from place to place, the settled cities grow by simple accretion, because the local area's significance to the players is essentially meaningless. But otherwise, cities grow and shrink as players level, and "capitals" happen near the most popular dungeons.
 

Caliane

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Static points would be much more effective if the world builder put WAY more though into where and why any point existed. Not just arbitrary points with point value, to force you to run to them. but instead actual tactical value. That alone would be a nice dynamic to have. locations that may have low point value, but high tactical value, vs points the opposite.
and then with patches, changes to terrain/defenses were put in, to counter any exploits, or better yet, allow in game counters.

That trenbuchet location in garrison that lets you hit bay in gw2? Either mod the terrain so you are forced to attack in a more vulnerable position, or again, allow it, but now add to it. Place a cannon there to shoot down and hit ballista, add some walls to make it look like the NPCS are actually building a platform for them. And at the base of the hill, add more hills, and maybe even a guard, to allow defenders more locations to build ballista to fire up at them. In general, find all the "safe" spots and add hills that allow counters.

Terrain should be constantly adjusted in a static map to keep it from getting stale and add new gameplay/tactics.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Terrain should be constantly adjusted in a static map to keep it from getting stale and add new gameplay/tactics.
I agree with your points, but what I'd prefer is terrain to be constant but player constructions and upgrades to change the map. Don't move the mountains or rivers, move the Fort, camps, and buildings.
 

Bondurant

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I hope they change that mechanic. To me, Cyrodill is just another continuation of the war fought between the hardcore PVP guilds that has been going on for the last 15 years. Not knowing that we're killing a familiar enemy is bad enough, not knowing that we're killing a familiar guild is even worse.

Everything I hear about Cyrodill just reminds me that they started off with large-scale factional PVP with sieges and neutered it into a boring anonymous brawl where no one is a winner and no one is a loser. Nothing to be gained or lost and no honor to be won.
Exactly what GW2's WvW is right now, an anonymous boring goose chase where zergs avoid each other to farm karma points. A bigass random instanced PvP map where you're more concerned about farming your X points, doing your Y dailies while scoring Z achievements than anything.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
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Darkfall is the best fantasy pvp game released in the last 6 years. Think about that and really let it sink in. It is literally like a special olympics race and it is shocking to me that these big companies can't manage a decent enough effort to even out perform some shyster greeks.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Exactly what GW2's WvW is right now, an anonymous boring goose chase where zergs avoid each other to farm karma points. A bigass random instanced PvP map where you're more concerned about farming your X points, doing your Y dailies while scoring Z achievements than anything.
Yup. Like many here I hit GW2's wvw hard at release (As in, I was in wvw at server up and did most of my leveling in it). After everyone beat each other a few dozen times the glory was won and there wasn't much excitement to continue. I don't know how to prevent that but adding in more tangible things to lose than a score would probably delay it.