The Elder Scrolls Online

Rescorla_sl said:

Its weird seeing so many posters here bash TESO yet have a massive hardon about FF14 when FF14 has one of the most slow-paced, boring combat gameplay systems of any MMO I've ever played. FF14 is a WoW-clone theme park MMO with the same crappy kill X number of bear and collect Y number of bear asses quest system that has been bashed countless number of times on this board for years. Despite all the contempt shown towards WoW clones on this board for years, FF14 for some reason gets a free pass.

Click to expand...

In simplest terms, it does what it does really well.

Xaxius_sl said:

In simplest terms, it does what it does really well.

Click to expand...

The same can be said for TESO.

One conclusion you can draw from the popularity of FF14 on these forums is that when push comes to shove, the Rerolled community prefers WoW clone theme parks over sandbox MMOs.

Rescorla_sl said:

Those who make the claim that TESO failed to capture the "magic" of what made the TES single player games great never explain exactly what "magic" they are referring to. As mentioned earlier, any new MMO that isn't an EQ1-like sandbox MMO is going to get shit on by a lot of people here even if it's a good game.

Click to expand...

I made a post about how TES and EQ both managed to make the world feel alive and relevant despite taking different approaches, and how/why TESO felt fake and contrived. You simply chose to ignore it. Or you are just dumb.

All games will get shit on by some people. As you point out, though, well made games, even if it's not the type of game you personally want to play, will gain grudging respect. Like FF:ARRMATEY isn't my thing, but the game ran great (even on my handheld Nvidia Shield Portable), looked great, had a coherent vision that they delivered on, have a responsive dev crew, lots of etcs TESO doesn't have.

Or you are just dumb.

popsicledeath_sl said:

I made a post about how TES and EQ both managed to make the world feel alive and relevant despite taking different approaches, and how/why TESO felt fake and contrived. You simply chose to ignore it. Or you are just dumb.

All games will get shit on by some people. As you point out, though, well made games, even if it's not the type of game you personally want to play, will gain grudging respect. Like FF:ARRMATEY isn't my thing, but the game ran great (even on my handheld Nvidia Shield Portable), looked great, had a coherent vision that they delivered on, have a responsive dev crew, lots of etcs TESO doesn't have.

Or you are just dumb.

Click to expand...

I ignored it since your point about EQ1 feeling like a live world was idiotic and made zero sense but I knew it would be a waste of time explaining to you why. I wasn't going to tell you that you came across as stupid but since you want to resort to personal attacks, now you know why I ignored your point.

sukik_sl said:

If I under stand it right its because when we joined the group we were in different phases. Joining the group doesn't force a phase shift. After we joined the same phase we probably wouldn't have had any problems.

Click to expand...

No idea then. Phasing works fine on the PC

Rescorla_sl said:

I ignored it since your point about EQ1 feeling like a live world was idiotic and made zero sense but I knew it would be a waste of time explaining to you why. I wasn't going to tell you that you came across as stupid but since you want to resort to personal attacks, now you know why I ignored your point.

Click to expand...

So, what you're saying is basically: "I dare anyone to tell me something I agree with and if I don't I'll discount it and continuing thinking exactly how I do despite being overwhelmingly seem as wrong and I'm going to dismiss people for personal attacks while calling everyone's opinion I don't like idiotic and stupid because I don't agree with them and that's why nobody can tell me anything I don't already want to believe!"

I mean, seriously, I don't understand why nobody, not one single person can make a single valid point discussion something with such a great conversationalist as yourself!

Agraza_sl said:

UO addressed SP as a problem and gained an audience. EQ addressed some of UO's problems and broke through to a larger audience. WoW addressed some of EQ's problems and broke through to a larger audience. Nothing since WoW has even correctly understood WoW's problems, and most have accentuated them precisely because they don't. Meanwhile Blizzard has let opportunities slip through its grasp with WC3 custom maps becoming entire genres independent of Blizzard, so it's not like they have the win button on lock.

Click to expand...

You mentioned something above I wanted to address separately. When UO was released, I contemplated buying it since I had played some of the Ultima games. When I heard it was open world PVP where gankers and griefers could steal all your stuff, I decided against it. As you pointed out, EQ1 marketed itself as a cooperative PVE game so it attracted a much larger community of players compared to those who preferred open world PVP. While a lot of people played EQ1, a significant chunk of the player base was negatively affected by the design decison to force grouping for most of the content. A lot of players who had real life commitments were also prevented from participating in end game PVE raiding because the hardcore raiding guilds controlled who had access to the raiding content.

WoW's support of solo gameplay and instanced end-game raiding sucked away the large majority of EQ1 players, especially the more casual players with real life commitments, jobs, families, etc.

How does all this apply to TESO? ZOS as well as every other dev out there knows what the gaming demographics are. Unlike a lot of people here, they realize that everyone has different likes and dislikes. Some people prefer PVE, some PVP, some like to solo, some group, some raid, etc etc. If ZOS made one critical design mistake, it would be the mistake of trying to satisfy everyone instead of focusing on just one target demographic.

Cyrodil PVP was designed for the UO and DAOC fans. The levelling up experience from 1-50 was for the TES fans who enjoy the story/lore as well as the casual gamers who want the option to solo. The original veteran zones were designed for the EQ1ers who enjoyed forced grouping. That created a major shitstorm. One thing every MMO dev learned from the TESO veteran zone fiasco is that the EQ1 forced grouping model for MMOs is forever dead. The new generation of gamers, especially those whose first MMO
was WoW or something released after it, soundly reject forced grouping.

In other words, EQ1's demise combined with WoW's success combined with the outright rejection of forced grouping in TESO lead me to conclude that the EQ1 sandbox model that so many people here yearn for is NEVER going to happen again. You either accept a new MMO for what it is or stop playing them outright.

Anyways, the overall point is that TESO attempts to satisfy multiple target demographics at the expense of focusing on just one target demographic and being great for that one demographic. As a result, across the board it gets a grade of "average". The people who wanted a hardcore PVE raiding game, a hardcore PVP game, a hardcore single player game, etc are always going to be disappointed with the game.

popsicledeath_sl said:

So, what you're saying is basically: "I dare anyone to tell me something I agree with and if I don't I'll discount it and continuing thinking exactly how I do despite being overwhelmingly seem as wrong and I'm going to dismiss people for personal attacks while calling everyone's opinion I don't like idiotic and stupid because I don't agree with them and that's why nobody can tell me anything I don't already want to believe!"

I mean, seriously, I don't understand why nobody, not one single person can make a single valid point discussion something with such a great conversationalist as yourself!

Click to expand...

If you want to convince yourself that is the case so you can pretend I am dumb then go for it. You said TES single player games and EQ1 felt like living worlds to you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but dont expect to have a real discussion on the topic with someone who thinks that is a ridiculous statement.

If someone doesn't infract Rescorla for being an insufferable twat soon, I'm going to light mod inboxes up with reports like its the 4th of fucking July.

I have never seen someone get trolled so hard in my fucking life.

Rescorla_sl said:

The same can be said for TESO.

Click to expand...

Your posts above seem to indicate otherwise.

Utnayan_sl said:

His point was not idiotic. I felt the same way about EQ1. I felt like the world was full of life and "lived" in. I felt like I was invading the homes of the monsters I would kill. I felt like I was stealing their precious loot. The community interaction, although archaic now, had a lot of 20/20 hindsight charm to it which when combined with everything else actually worked fairly well although it was a pain in the ass by today's casual MMORPG standards. You will be hard pressed to find a lot of folks that think otherwise. Inherent danger due to long travelling times (Hell even that was fun).

TESO is a plastic shit world in comparison. It's fucking lifeless. With lifeless animation and wooden movement and broken systems where the delusion of grandeur was Paul Sage's epic tutorial area he re did about 5 times while starving everyone else from assets, without team communications, held together by "The Loremaster's" Internal Wiki as a guideline to "Go ahead and create your own discombobulated shit, and try to stick to these general guidelines." That doesn't take into account the completely broken tech, a lackluster production effort, stale characters, poor story, and everything else that was wrong with the game. You seem like you are honestly looking for some validation to write down a memoir to send to the bosses of why the game fucking sucked and wasn't embraced due to A, B, C, and D which were beyond the developers control and somehow placing it as a fault of the players - which is fucking typical for someone like a Paul Sage, Matt Firor, Brad McQuaid, Danuser, shit, any of the relics... Because their heads are so far up their own ass that they cannot fathom how people cannot find fun in their creations which are mind numbingly dull to play because they all, now, lack passion to make something fun instead of reaching for their next job or pay-scale. You fail to see that. Why? Who knows. Maybe you are one of them which is why you take such offense to this game being shat on. If you * ARE * Paul Sage, my advice would be to take a good fucking look in the mirror and you will have your answer on why the game sucks and isn't embraced. If you aren't, realize that you are ONE of a VERY FEW folks that somehow like this game (All the fucking power to you dude) and that your opinion is not reflective of the majority of MMORPG gamers out there. Christ, even * I * can admit as much.

Click to expand...

I'll respond in more depth later on when I can get on my PC but let me highlight one fundamental misconception that plagues you. You believe your opinion reflects the majority of MMORPG gamers out there. I think the market indicates otherwise. If you were correct, there would be numerous EQ1 clones out there. The fact that not one developer, to include SOE itself, copied EQ1's major design features should tell you something. Hell even EQ2 can be considered a WoW clone.

Quaid_sl said:

If someone doesn't infract Rescorla for being an insufferable twat soon, I'm going to light mod inboxes up with reports like its the 4th of fucking July.

I have never seen someone get trolled so hard in my fucking life.

Click to expand...

I think he's going for the title of the worst poster. Let his star shine bright.

Quaid_sl said:

If someone doesn't infract Rescorla for being an insufferable twat soon, I'm going to light mod inboxes up with reports like its the 4th of fucking July.

I have never seen someone get trolled so hard in my fucking life.

Click to expand...

I apologize for forgetting that the official Rerolled rule is no one is allowed to deviate from the majority/consensus opinion. Let's just always agree with what Utnayan believes/wants.

Rescorla_sl said:

I apologize for forgetting that the official Rerolled rule is no one is allowed to deviate from the majority/consensus opinion. Let's just always agree with what Utnayan believes/wants.

Click to expand...

Oh, you're allowed. Just try not to be so fucking boring about it.

Report #1

Quaid_sl said:

Oh, you're allowed. Just try not to be so fucking boring about it.

Report #1

Click to expand...

Based on the number of people swooping in to attack me, boring is not the term I would use. Some people here are just scared of having their opinions/beliefs challenged. I don't let it bother me if I offend them. Report me again if you need to.

Rescorla_sl said:

Based on the number of people swooping in to attack me, boring is not the term I would use. Some people here are just scared of having their opinions/beliefs challenged. I don't let it bother me if I offend them. Report me again if you need to.

Click to expand...

Nobody is swooping in to attack you. You are charging to the defence of this game even when the slightest criticism is uttered. You've been doing it for over a year. Other people are not the problem here, you are.

Can we PLEASE discuss the game itself from this point forward Instead of trying to score points in a meaningless argument that has been resolved for many many months?

Rescorla_sl said:

Based on the number of people swooping in to attack me, boring is not the term I would use. Some people here are just scared of having their opinions/beliefs challenged. I don't let it bother me if I offend them. Report me again if you need to.

Click to expand...

Maybe instead of arguing with people about whether their opinion is wrong or not, you could argue based on the merits you see in the game. What do you think ESO has done right?

I will admit that it had quite a few things that appealed to me in the beginning, and I was willing to overlook the many flaws, because I believed the statements about future plans for the game. I felt that most of the things that bothered me would be fixed in the first year of major updates. Didn't happen. I'm not saying it won't ever happen, either, but with their focus being on console (I'm sure it's a much bigger player base, so I can't argue from a business perspective), I don't think the new content is going to appeal to me as much as the stuff that was outlined as being planned by Firor in the early days.

Here's my plotline for what went wrong with this game, and it all started with bullet #1:

• They developed this game with investor money (private investment group put up something like 200M.)
• Said investors got a say in development and when their focus groups said the game wasn't "enough Skyrim" they started to really dumb down the MMO parts of the game, resulting in a very costly rework.
• Investors ran it through another focus group and decided it wasn't going to make enough money because it wasn't "enough WOW" - this resulted in another rework.
• Now we're brought to the point where we have a Frankenstein of a game that isn't a very good sandbox game, and also isn't a very good linear MMO, and it was way over budget.
• Sage decides that if they get the intro just right, they will grab enough subs that they can continue to tweak the game until the masses love it; commence reworking the intro 5 or 6 times.
• Firor continues to tout the awesome PVP endgame, but the investors are trying to attract a big crowd and they don't give a fuck about PVP, so he has to pull resources from Cyrodiil to start working on their genius idea of Craglorn. Hey, if we can attract Skyrim players and WOW players why not MOBA players? We'll make timed raids the endgame and we'll have LEADERBOARDS!
• Release happens, and soon everyone on the internet starts telling them everything that's wrong with the game. Quakecon comes, and Sage promises (and demos WIP) updates that will fix most of the big complaints.
• Problem is, it's not selling well enough to provide a fast enough ROI for the investors. Turns out ESO on the PC has a lot of competition. Investors have a real brain buster: Let's keep milking the PC subs and stop work on any new content. We'll polish up what we have and get this bitch sold ASAP on the console, where there's little to no competition in the MMO marketplace.
• Now every new update will be flavored to appeal primarily to the larger, blander console environment.