The Hobbit

Aychamo BanBan · Dec 28, 2012

Lithose_sl said:
Gandalf showed his power quite a few times.

He got into a magical fight with the Balrog before the bridge--when he tried to lock a stone door on him. The magic was so powerful that there was a bright flash of light and it caused the whole stone structure to cave in. (And these were stone pillars that was described to death as being massive/thick/unbreakable--and Gandalf's magic, colliding with the Balrog's counter spell, broke them like twigs.)

He disarmed Aragorn, Gimli and Leagolas all at once with a wave of his hand. These are three warriors that throughout the book were able to chase off or show down many times their number.

And then he said this to themNo blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends,none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

He lit a tree on fire and controlled the flames in order to chase off a pack of wolves.

And not to mention he actually threw down with the Balrog and killed him. Remember, that this was a demon so powerful, that the Orcs which defeated an entire Dwarven expedition/army, backed away and were frightened of it.

And then this quoteDangerous? And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

The fact was, power in general was far less pronounced in the books. In Moria, for example, the whole Orc fight in the tomb lasted like 2 seconds--Aragon cuts one orcs head off, and then the rest of the orcs run. Or the fight between Sauramon and Gandalf, which was actually just like a stare down and not some Wizard duel. But in general, Gandalf is pretty pimp in the bookswhen he wants to be--it's just never when anything important to the plot happens. He only busts out his god powers when he Tolkien wants do something that looks cool, but won't actually affect the little guy finishing the story.

There's also the fact that Tolkien does blur the line of what "power" means pretty well. A lot of times power doesn't mean physical strength, but it can also mean political, military and even the ability to manipulate people. Like Sauron, after he reformed, was physically fairly weak--even the diminished Elves+White council could chase him off, but he was still considered the strongest force in Middle Earth--and that's because Tolkien usually talks about power in a giant amalgamation and not actually in terms of who can kick whose ass in a fight.

I can't help but think of the battle of 5 armies, when gandalf's arm got hurt and put in a sling. But, that is "the hobbit" gandalf, and not LOTR gandalf.

Szlia · Dec 28, 2012

I have not read any China Mi?ville nor do I completely agree with his following quote, but I came across it as a kind of frontispiece to a french fantasy book I read recently (Wastburg) and thought it fit in the current discussion:

China Mi?ville_sl said:
Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious - you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike - his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clich?s - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.

Full quote

When they met the goblin king, it seemed the guy was obviously smart and well spoken, so that the natural course of events would be to try to negotiate with him, but nope. It surprised me when I saw the movie, but I guess it would not have surprised Mi?ville. After all, goblins are evil, so you kill them, you don't talk to them.

The Ancient_sl · Dec 28, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
When they met the goblin king, it seemed the guy was obviously smart and well spoken, so that the natural course of events would be to try to negotiate with him, but nope. It surprised me when I saw the movie, but I guess it would not have surprised Mi?ville. After all, goblins are evil, so you kill them, you don't talk to them.

Once again attributing a Jackson mistake to Tolkien. In the book they tried to plea with the Goblin King(in spite of clear racial animosity between Dwarves and Orcs), he saw Orcrist, and was like OH FUCK NO.

Royal · Dec 28, 2012

Gandalf's limited use of overt power stems largely from him being an agent of the Valar made flesh. The Valar had decided to take a much more indirect approach to dealing with Sauron than they did with Morgoth. The Valar had withdrawn from the world due to the arrogance of men (the Numenoreans) and the only reason Sauron was still around by the time of the books was due to the failure of men (specifically Isildur). They were leaving it primarily up to men to either sink or swim in dealing with him. They sent help in the form of the Istari, but they were forbidden from using overt power to bend the wills of others into following them in dealing with the threat. If Gandalf had gone around roasting orcs by the score and smacking down Nazgul, people would have been deferring to him on everything else.

Big Phoenix · Dec 28, 2012

Sounds like Tolkien followed the same logic as modern day christians; "Oh God is supreme and all powerful but he doesnt want to do anything to stop all the bad in the world, its up to YOU!" Its just bad reasoning and no way to really defend it.

Thought to me it seems everyone who are nitpicking about the Eagles(at least in LoTR context) forget about the Nazgul. Pretty obvious to me they would make quick work of any Eagle that flew into Mordor.

Famm · Dec 28, 2012

The Ancient_sl said:
Once again attributing a Jackson mistake to Tolkien. In the book they tried to plea with the Goblin King(in spite of clear racial animosity between Dwarves and Orcs), he saw Orcrist, and was like OH FUCK NO.

I'm not sure what the quote has to do with Sizla's critique, but in terms of fantasy writing I think that full quote is pretty spot the fuck on. And I did enjoy reading Tolkien, though I never plan to again.

Famm · Dec 28, 2012

Cor_sl said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFh6c...ature=youtu.be

"I feel like Tolkein had no idea what he was doing.."

Hah.

Good review. Sums up the majority of the problems with the movie.

Damn, they really hated 48 FPS. It sounds glorious based on most of the responses in this thread. I don't usually see 3D since my kids hate it and I don't mind not paying extra. Now I want to see 48 FPS just to form my own opinion on it.

checkyeah_sl · Dec 28, 2012

I'm not a fan of 3D. There are some really good scenes, but it's horrible for high action moments. In my opinion it's a great one time experience, but if I'm looking to follow a story line then I'd rather see 2d.

As for the movie, a contract? really? I thought the beginning was stupid, but I never read the book so maybe there are legal contracts. There was too much fast paced action, meaning when something went down, it was just overdone.

I enjoyed the movie more than others this year, but maybe that's because of my interest in the genre. I'm hoping the next 2 are better

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Dec 28, 2012

I liked it, saw it in 3d and 48fps. I do like the 3D, except when they throw shit at the viewer, ie arrows or whatnot. That's annoying. Otherwise I'm all for it and 48 fps too.

Lithose · Dec 28, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
I have not read any China Mi?ville nor do I completely agree with his following quote, but I came across it as a kind of frontispiece to a french fantasy book I read recently (Wastburg) and thought it fit in the current discussion:

When they met the goblin king, it seemed the guy was obviously smart and well spoken, so that the natural course of events would be to try to negotiate with him, but nope. It surprised me when I saw the movie, but I guess it would not have surprised Mi?ville. After all, goblins are evil, so you kill them, you don't talk to them.

It's pretty interesting to see how authors are so colored by their time. In Tolkien's time, it wasn't cliche to have a force that was nearly pure evil--because he witnessed first hand such a force. There wasalmost(You can make arguments for their science) nothing redeemable about the Nazi's, if they were in a book, they would be considered the most cliche, one dimensional, evil characters ever. In fact, they are often used to portray such evil in any kind of pulp fiction, that's how secured their place in history is as "the bad guys". Also, in his time, he saw large groups of men, with great power--sit and watch this "evil" grow and do absolutely nothing. FDR and Churchill both saw the danger and both were stymied by politics and hesitations.

His writing reflects this more simplistic world. Now a modern author comes along and finds it all to be a absolutist, cliche and simple writing--because his views have been shaped by undefined enemies, proxy wars, incredible information technologies and corruption/greed being more pervasive than "evil" governments. And he's not wrong in his assessment, I just find it interesting how much time has changed our perception of the world, and seeing how that creeps into our yardstick of what's good fantasy.

nuday · Dec 29, 2012

etchazz_sl said:
why is this even added into movies?

I have always assumed it is a sort of throw-back or something. Maybe all the directors feel like they've got to put it in their movie as a sort of inside joke. Or maybe the sound guys are just really unoriginal.

Royal · Dec 29, 2012

Nuday_sl said:
I have always assumed it is a sort of throw-back or something. Maybe all the directors feel like they've got to put it in their movie as a sort of inside joke. Or maybe the sound guys are just really unoriginal.

Unlike the Disney animators, who never miss an opportunity to slip in some sort of sexual reference to sew the seeds for the next generation of cam whores.

Vardisk_sl · Dec 29, 2012

You also need to be aware of the entire reason Gandalf and the other wizards are there in the first place. Iluvatar (God) essentially decided that the forces of evil were getting much too powerful compared to the forces of good. So the wizards were sent in to help balance things out some, be advisors to men and the elves, and help them a little bit here and there. They were not sent to single handedly eradicate evil, it was always Iluvatar's plan that the mortal races were supposed to defeat evil primarily on their own. So Gandalf, more than anything, is just there to poke and prod people towards greater goals than he's allowed to accomplish on his own.

nuday · Dec 29, 2012

Royal_sl said:
Unlike the Disney animators, who never miss an opportunity to slip in some sort of sexual reference to sew the seeds for the next generation of cam whores.

Even cam whores need role models.

Cor_sl · Dec 29, 2012

Famm_sl said:
Damn, they really hated 48 FPS. It sounds glorious based on most of the responses in this thread. I don't usually see 3D since my kids hate it and I don't mind not paying extra. Now I want to see 48 FPS just to form my own opinion on it.

I wouldn't take their opinion on 48fps seriously. Like they said, they had shitty seats and, as a result, the screen looked awful.

Judging by people's reactions, 48FPS seems to be a 'love it' or 'hate it' thing. I've seen so many differing opinions about it.

The BBC is filming some nature docs in 48fps at the moment that should be airing early next year. It'll be interesting to see how they look.

Royal · Dec 29, 2012

Something like a nature documentary is the sort of thing that will probably benefit the most from the format. There are no costumes, prosthetics, or cgi effects being made more conspicuous by the more lifelike quality of the picture. I wonder how well the format will translate to television.

nurdi_sl · Dec 30, 2012

I just went and saw it tonight. No 3D, no high frame rate. Just plain old 'Hobbit'.

I give it a 9/10.

I read the novel a long time ago and honestly never really enjoyed Tolkien's writing too much, but nonetheless I thoroughly enjoyed the screen adaptation, regardless of whether it was accurate.

Also, if you listened to that Tarantino interview on Stern recently I think he hit the nail on the head by thinking the way films are made now are complete shit, to roughly paraphrase. Too much gloss not enough grit and feel to the screen anymore. I also don't like having nausea-induced seizures while viewing films =)

Greyform · Dec 30, 2012

Arakkis_sl said:
Lot of crybabies ITT. The movie is great, go see it.

/agree.

I liked the movie, thought it was well paced and am glad there will be more to come. Originally I was like "how the hell are they going to stretch this into 3 movies?" Now I am glad they are.

Famm · Dec 30, 2012

Greyform_sl said:
Originally I was like "how the hell are they going to stretch this into 3 movies?" Now I am glad they are.

I agree with that. Movie was pretty fun despite its flaws.

Dumar_sl · Dec 30, 2012

Vardisk_sl said:
You also need to be aware of the entire reason Gandalf and the other wizards are there in the first place. Iluvatar (God) essentially decided that the forces of evil were getting much too powerful compared to the forces of good. So the wizards were sent in to help balance things out some, be advisors to men and the elves, and help them a little bit here and there. They were not sent to single handedly eradicate evil, it was always Iluvatar's plan that the mortal races were supposed to defeat evil primarily on their own. So Gandalf, more than anything, is just there to poke and prod people towards greater goals than he's allowed to accomplish on his own.

It's pretty obvious most people here haven't read much Tolkien. I gave up trying to explain this to friends as well.

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