The Matrix reboot/remake

The Edge said:

The philosophy has always been the driving force. People that try to science it too much are barking up the wrong tree.

Remember, this is a story with a computer program that has psychic abilities and can predict the future in the Oracle. Where's the nerdrage over that?

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Caliane said:

you guys are all wrong.

Its a simple order vs chaos thing, In an artificial closed system.
The Architect is order. The oracle introduces chaos to the matrix.
Order is of course, everything in place and quantified. The matrix is artificial system where the entirety of its makeup is structured and organized. there is nothing random. People are monitored, their realities shaped, etc. They create and model every snowflake in the snowstorm. The architect articulates this. as well as the cake organism scene to further articulate the robots have 100% control, in predicting and inducing human behavior.
But in this system, there is no growth. No change. that is the flaw in Order.
So, the robots introduced an agent of change. The oracle. Her job was to add chaos to the system. >behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
Now, from here the issue would be. From her perspective, its probably not chaos. Since, SHE is the only one that knows what variables she introduced, and thus SHE knows the outcome of her new variables. but to everyone else it is. because they suddenly have variables in the system they do not control. And thus, all their systems are thrown into disarray, and can not be predicted.
now, she could possibly not have access to the same data as the Architect, and thus also not really be sure what her new variables will do. but, her prescience suggests she does, and thus can predict exactly what will happen.

That the oracle creates the future is lampshaded with the "Oh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything"

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The Edge said:

One last time before I give up on you guys and let you live in your delusions.

Perfect example here of Smith, after copying onto the Oracle, talking about clairvoyance. He has her abilities now, and she's had glimpses of the future, so he's having a moment where he recollects seeing how things play out. Once more, this has NEVER HAPPENED before in any of the other iterations of the Matrix, so you can't fall back on that excuse. And this also doesn't fall into the other excuse of "well they can just predict how things will play out cuz they're computers lawls". He specifically says "I've seen this." It's from a vision of seeing things before they happen. That's the literal definition of clairvoyance. You can bitch and moan all you want, but the evidence is clearly against you non-believers. (1:34 in case it doesn't take you there)

The Edge out

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Ambiturner said:

Great argument, Except for the part where the oracle specifically says she didn't know what would happen.

Did you even watch the movies?

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The Edge said:

Having clairvoyance doesn't mean you know how everything plays out forever and ever, ffs. Even with Smith there at the end, he's seen that moment. That ONE moment. Which is why he goes through the motions of what he remembers seeing. The movie is about CHOICE. Neo still had the option at the end to continue fighting, or to let Smith win. It was ultimately up to him how it ended.

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The Architect tells us that the Oracle was originally created with the purpose of studying various aspects of the human psyche, and that she "stumbled upon" a solution for the Matrix of offering legitimate choice within the Matrix. Presumably, this means the Oracle made a breakthrough discovery about human choice that allowed her to see past it, which explains why she can see past most human choice while the Architect and Merovingian cannot. The Oracle is still carrying out her original purpose of studying human psyche by trying to grasp choice that is not understood by the chooser. If she can, she could potentially see infinitely far into the future of the Matrix.

Seraph asks the Oracle, “Did you always know?”, and the Oracle says she didn’t know, but that she “believed”. This is the last line of the movie, and it is no coincidence, because it is perhaps the most important line out of all three movies: the Oracle is the first machine or program to make a choice that traditional machines and programs wouldn’t understand: a choice based on hope/faith, and a choice that the Oracle herself therefore could not see beyond.

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The Edge said:

Wrong again. None of you have explained away any of the clear evidence shown. Instead you try to bring up new problems while disregarding everything else. Smith says "I've seen this". Hence vision. Hence clairvoyance. Not calculating variables. Not guessing. He's SEEN it. It's why other programs wanted her "eyes." It's the entire reason that version of Smith takes off the sunglasses. Because he has the 'clear vision" aka clairvoyance of the Oracle. I had really hoped metaphors weren't beyond you but shit..... The Oracle is also referred to as "an intuitive program". Psychics are referred to as intuitives. Hot damn people, this isn't that difficult to figure out. Like I stated, being able to see the future doesn't mean you see EVERYTHING. Things still come down to free will. That's why it's important for her to say she believed. She saw what was coming, and believed things would work out.

Even Neo has some psychic abilities. He was having dreams of Trinity falling out the window. The Oracle tells him "you have the sight now". "The ability to see the world without time." But when she asked if he could see what happened to her. He said no. Because there was a choice to be made. The future is not etched in stone. Which again, is why her belief in him is so powerful.

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time on this thread.

This board is entirely too negative.

Just look at the comments on the recent movies. It's filled with "this is terrible", "worst ever", "completely awful", "1/10" etc. You all are some jaded fucks. I feel fortunate to not see the world with such disdain. I can't imagine hating things as much as you guys do. I really feel sad for you. I knew there was a reason I left the old board for over a year.

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The Edge said:

This board is entirely too negative.

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The Edge said:

I knew there was a reason I left the old board for over a year.

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The Edge said:

Wrong again. None of you have explained away any of the clear evidence shown. Instead you try to bring up new problems while disregarding everything else. Smith says "I've seen this". Hence vision. Hence clairvoyance. Not calculating variables. Not guessing. He's SEEN it. It's why other programs wanted her "eyes." It's the entire reason that version of Smith takes off the sunglasses. Because he has the 'clear vision" aka clairvoyance of the Oracle. I had really hoped metaphors weren't beyond you but shit..... The Oracle is also referred to as "an intuitive program". Psychics are referred to as intuitives. Hot damn people, this isn't that difficult to figure out. Like I stated, being able to see the future doesn't mean you see EVERYTHING. Things still come down to free will. That's why it's important for her to say she believed. She saw what was coming, and believed things would work out.

Even Neo has some psychic abilities. He was having dreams of Trinity falling out the window. The Oracle tells him "you have the sight now". "The ability to see the world without time." But when she asked if he could see what happened to her. He said no. Because there was a choice to be made. The future is not etched in stone. Which again, is why her belief in him is so powerful.

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time on this thread.

This board is entirely too negative.

Just look at the comments on the recent movies. It's filled with "this is terrible", "worst ever", "completely awful", "1/10" etc. You all are some jaded fucks. I feel fortunate to not see the world with such disdain. I can't imagine hating things as much as you guys do. I really feel sad for you. I knew there was a reason I left the old board for over a year.

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The Edge said:

Wrong again. None of you have explained away any of the clear evidence shown. Instead you try to bring up new problems while disregarding everything else. Smith says "I've seen this". Hence vision. Hence clairvoyance. Not calculating variables. Not guessing. He's SEEN it. It's why other programs wanted her "eyes." It's the entire reason that version of Smith takes off the sunglasses. Because he has the 'clear vision" aka clairvoyance of the Oracle. I had really hoped metaphors weren't beyond you but shit..... The Oracle is also referred to as "an intuitive program". Psychics are referred to as intuitives. Hot damn people, this isn't that difficult to figure out. Like I stated, being able to see the future doesn't mean you see EVERYTHING. Things still come down to free will. That's why it's important for her to say she believed. She saw what was coming, and believed things would work out.

Even Neo has some psychic abilities. He was having dreams of Trinity falling out the window. The Oracle tells him "you have the sight now". "The ability to see the world without time." But when she asked if he could see what happened to her. He said no. Because there was a choice to be made. The future is not etched in stone. Which again, is why her belief in him is so powerful.

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time on this thread.

This board is entirely too negative.

Just look at the comments on the recent movies. It's filled with "this is terrible", "worst ever", "completely awful", "1/10" etc. You all are some jaded fucks. I feel fortunate to not see the world with such disdain. I can't imagine hating things as much as you guys do. I really feel sad for you. I knew there was a reason I left the old board for over a year.

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Rezz said:

The Edge is putting a -lot- of extra homework in to a work that is accidentally interesting as a three part movie series, not an intentionally interesting three part movie series. The first movie was absolutely amazing, and the second movie had moments. The third movie was a bunch of nonsense combined with a college kid's philosophy paper. It appears much deeper than it is to some people because they are ascribing deliberation by the writers/directors that simply was not there. If an overwhelming amount of people go "eh, it was stupid" then it might just be stupid. Especially when a large chunk of that overwhelming amount of people aren't Pro-Wrestling watching folks. Philosophy majors think it is a lot neater than it is, because of what -they- took from it. Not from what it was intended to actually convey.

I'm honestly confused why this trilogy is still having anyone spend more than absolute idle time coming up with why the second and third movies are a huge right angle swerve compared to the first. Success+art school sometimes does not = good, even artistically.

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