The Zionists are whining thread

Beef Supreme_sl · Jul 29, 2014

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Germany and Japan also had to be almost obliterated to get to the point of "peace". Japan took two nukes to the face, and even as Russian soldiers were razing and raping Berlin, Germany still held out to the bitter end. This despite the fact that they didn't even believe that they were going to Paradise when they died.. They had to be entirely disassembled and rebuilt anew for the most part, and this included re-education for a generation of brainwashed Germans/Japanese. Also (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) they were at their core mostly secular cultures.. "Mowing the lawn" is basically a triage strategy to manage the problem, because the alternative would be major warfare and a huge loss of civilian life a la Japan/Germany. Could Gaza be turned around via a WW II style Marshal plan? Possibly, but nobody (including Israel) has the stomach to get there.

And Gaza's already not? How much past being in an open air prison do you need them to be?

GTFO

Abefroman · Jul 29, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
It is an interesting thought that if Israel had the same level of firepower and technology their fights with Gaza could be much more destructive on both sides, with hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers/civilians, and if Israel had a decisive victory Gaza might be less able to resume fighting in 5-10 years. But obviously it's not preferable or suggestive.

One question I've always had, is when Israel gets rocket'd and Hamas is linked to it, why don't they drone/air strike the Hamas leaders? It seems like they go after the soldiers and lieutenants but not the leaders. Why is that?

Either they don't know where they are at or it's one of those stupid unwritten rules that you don't kill leaders cause chaos. Those Israeli teens were rumoured to have been killed by some rogue hamas element and not sanctioned. The fear might be that if you destroy the command structure then that type of stuff becomes the norm.

That entire part of the world is nuts and I back Israel because at least I know they wouldn't cut my fucking head off.

iannis · Jul 29, 2014

Vaccum of power. Sometimes they do try to kill the leaders and succeed. Sometimes, like this time, they launch missiles at buildings where they know the leaders aren't, but claim to be. Sometimes it's just the devil you know.

Those men aren't just standing around waiting to be killed. Managing to get to them is cutting through more civilians than killing them is worth.

And yeah that's a little nonsensical or paradoxical. If there were any reason to think that all it took was decapitation, I'm sure the calculus of acceptable losses would change.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

Beef Supreme_sl said:
And Gaza's already not? How much past being in an open air prison do you need them to be?

GTFO

Germany lost 8 million people or 10% of their population during WWII.World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many Palestinians have been lost in the last decade due to war with Israel?

iannis · Jul 29, 2014

Remember the blowback a few years ago when the Israelis shot a missile at the dude in the wheelchair? I mean here he is in a wheelchair and they assassinate himwith a missile strike. If you think about it you probably remember that.

How it looks to Americans is an important consideration.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

Abefroman_sl said:
Either they don't know where they are at or it's one of those stupid unwritten rules that you don't kill leaders cause chaos. Those Israeli teens were rumoured to have been killed by some rogue hamas element and not sanctioned. The fear might be that if you destroy the command structure then that type of stuff becomes the norm.

That entire part of the world is nuts and I back Israel because at least I know they wouldn't cut my fucking head off.

iAnus_sl said:
Vaccum of power. Sometimes they do try to kill the leaders and succeed. Sometimes, like this time, they launch missiles at buildings where they know the leaders aren't, but claim to be. Sometimes it's just the devil you know.

Those men aren't just standing around waiting to be killed. Managing to get to them is cutting through more civilians than killing them is worth.

And yeah that's a little nonsensical or paradoxical. If there were any reason to think that all it took was decapitation, I'm sure the calculus of acceptable losses would change.

Yeah those are the reasonable thoughts I had, but I don't know enough about the situation to know how true the assumptions are. I could see it being deceptively strategic where they are able to 'cut the head off the snake' but are afraid the eventual replacements will actually be less aggressive toward Israel.

If you're a Hamas leader and you know you can incite anger toward Israel, stay in power and likely embezzle some Palestine funds to your family then you've got a good path to follow. If you also know that attempting to reduce anger toward Israel could put your head on a pike or at least remove your base then it becomes an easier path to choose. But if everytime Hamas is related to a severe attack the leadership in Hamas is targetted, then there's more to consider.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

iAnus_sl said:
Remember the blowback a few years ago when the Israelis shot a missile at the dude in the wheelchair? I mean here he is in a wheelchair and they assassinate himwith a missile strike. If you think about it you probably remember that.

How it looks to Americans is an important consideration.

Yeah I dunno, I prefer that the leaders in war are the first to die.

Maybe it's just me but the closer the war gets to the people who make the decisions the better for the proletariat.

iannis · Jul 29, 2014

I also prefer wars where the civilian population is not used as semi-willing human shields.

Have a chat with Islamists about that one.

Edit: Not that -we- are above it, mind you. This isn't some retarded high ground argument. Guess where prisoners of war get put during air raids during ww2. Guess.

Abefroman · Jul 29, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
Yeah those are the reasonable thoughts I had, but I don't know enough about the situation to know how true the assumptions are. I could see it being deceptively strategic where they are able to 'cut the head off the snake' but are afraid the eventual replacements will actually be less aggressive toward Israel.

If you're a Hamas leader and you know you can incite anger toward Israel, stay in power and likely embezzle some Palestine funds to your family then you've got a good path to follow. If you also know that attempting to reduce anger toward Israel could put your head on a pike or at least remove your base then it becomes an easier path to choose. But if everytime Hamas is related to a severe attack the leadership in Hamas is targetted, then there's more to consider.

We all know Israel would like nothing more then to just get rid of palestine and take more land. You leave leadership in place to do just enough shit to give you an excuse to occupy more land and level shit without doing any real damage to your country. Thousands of primitive rockets is a hell of a lot better thing to deal with then kidnappings, suicide bombers and other shit. As long as the Hamas leaders are making millions off this shit and you keep them in power you esentially controll the situation.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

iAnus_sl said:
I also prefer wars where the civilian population is not used as semi-willing human shields.

Have a chat with Islamists about that one.

Edit: Not that -we- are above it, mind you. This isn't some retarded high ground argument. Guess where prisoners of war get put during air raids during ww2. Guess.

Near the liquor?

I know you're not making a high ground argument, but Palestinians being barbaric in their desperation isn't a big factor in whether or not it'd be okay for Israel to strategically perpetuate the war by avoiding the deaths of the Palestinian leadership.

And I'm not saying that's what they're doing, I'm just curious.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

Abefroman_sl said:
We all know Israel would like nothing more then to just get rid of palestine and take more land. You leave leadership in place to do just enough shit to give you an excuse to occupy more land and level shit without doing any real damage to your country. Thousands of primitive rockets is a hell of a lot better thing to deal with then kidnappings, suicide bombers and other shit. As long as the Hamas leaders are making millions off this shit and you keep them in power you esentially controll the situation.

Yeah that's the conspiracy argument, but is there any evidence to support it?

Cinge · Jul 29, 2014

I'd guess they just don't know where they are, or they hide in places where collateral damage would be too much? I'd be shocked if they could catch one out and about with only his entourage as company, they wouldn't try to take them out. Though I guess you would have to deal with a surge from the rest of the body as retaliation and since that "Body" is right next door it's even more a concern. The whole "kill the leaders" doesn't seem to work in these type of groups/organizations, in regards to them just disappearing or stop being a problem.

Frenzied Wombat · Jul 29, 2014

They do sometimes, like Ahmed Jabari in 2012. However, Hamas top leadership usually hides out in Qatar, particularly when there is escalation with Israel. That's why you have some Gazans (those that don't fear execution at least), calling out Khaled for being a coward for eating bon-bons in Qatar while they get stomped. They also know that taking out, say Khaled Mashaal, won't really degrade Hamas operationally, yet will guarantee retributive suicide bombing attempts. It's an extension of the "mowing the lawn" philosophy mentioned above. You can't forget that Hamas, like all radical Islamists, believe everything is pre-ordained by their god. Assassinating their leadership is not demoralizing like it would be to a western culture. Israel views Hamas leadership as generic genocidal/suicidal thugs, not as strategic military geniuses, hence they're all considered fungible.

Tuco · Jul 29, 2014

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
They do sometimes, like Ahmed Jabari in 2012. However, Hamas top leadership usually hides out in Qatar, particularly when there is escalation with Israel. That's why you have some Gazans (those that don't fear execution at least), calling out Khaled for being a coward for eating bon-bons in Qatar while they get stomped. They also know that taking out, say Khaled Mashaal, won't really degrade Hamas operationally, yet will guarantee retributive suicide bombing attempts. It's an extension of the "mowing the lawn" philosophy mentioned above. You can't forget that Hamas, like all radical Islamists, believe everything is pre-ordained by their god. Assassinating their leadership is not demoralizing like it would be to a western culture. Israel views Hamas leadership as generic genocidal/suicidal thugs, not as strategic military geniuses, hence they're all considered fungible.

I'd love to see an infographic/chart of the Hamas leadership, especially with where they live currently, how long they've been in power and what they're responsible for.

As for the demoralization part, my thought is that if Israel killed the last 5 administrations after Hamas attacked them the 6th administration would be more inclined toward peace.

Cinge · Jul 29, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
I'd love to see an infographic/chart of the Hamas leadership, especially with where they live currently, how long they've been in power and what they're responsible for.

As for the demoralization part, my thought is that if Israel killed the last 5 administrations after Hamas attacked them the 6th administration would be more inclined toward peace.

You'd think but I would guess it would just lead to revenge. With most likely the 6th guy hiding while inciting the masses to retaliate.

Abefroman · Jul 29, 2014

I don't see peace ever happening because religion is involved.

fanaskin · Jul 29, 2014

I just think the Israeli's poison themselves with what they are doing

This video shows an Israeli mob actually singing in celebration of children's deaths in the style of a soccer fans' song: "In Gaza there's no studying, No children are left there, Ol?, ol?, ol?-ol?-ol?."

The mob also incites directly against Ahmed Tibi and Haneen Zoabi, two prominent Palestinian citizens of Israel who are members of the Knesset, Israel's parliament.

The video of the 26 July event in Tel Aviv was published by Israeli journalist Haim Har-Zahav.

Tibi - Ahmed Tibi
I wanted you to know
The next kid to be hurt will be your kid
I hate Tibi
I hate Tibi the terrorist.
Tibi - is dead!
Tibi - is dead!
Tibi - is dead!

Tibi is a terrorist.
Tibi is a terrorist.
Tibi is a terrorist.

They'll take their papers away.
They'll take their papers away.
They'll take their papers away.
Ol?, ol?, ol?-ol?-ol?
In Gaza there's no studying
No children are left there,
Ol?, ol?, ol?-ol?-ol?,

[Three lines, not entirely clear]

Who is getting nervous, I hear?
Zoabi, this here is the Land of Israel
This here is the Land of Israel, Zoabi
This here is the Land of the Jews
I hate you, I do, Zoabi
I hate all the Arabs.
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard

Frenzied Wombat · Jul 29, 2014

Beef Supreme_sl said:
And Gaza's already not? How much past being in an open air prison do you need them to be?

GTFO

You obviously no nothing of history. Seriously. Comparing the Gazans to Germany/Japan post WWII. Then, even if your comparison held true, then you're basically admitting that Gaza leadership is so fucking crazy that despite having harms inflicted on them in the excess of two nukes and 10% of your population, they still don't want to surrender, let alone hold to a cease-fire.

Brando · Jul 29, 2014

Pretty sure a lot of the Hamas leadership is in southern Lebanon as well, would guess most aren't just sitting around in Gaza waiting to get pounded like the rest of the people unlucky enough to have been born in that shit hole.

Frenzied Wombat · Jul 29, 2014

Tuco_sl said:
I'd love to see an infographic/chart of the Hamas leadership, especially with where they live currently, how long they've been in power and what they're responsible for.

As for the demoralization part, my thought is that if Israel killed the last 5 administrations after Hamas attacked them the 6th administration would be more inclined toward peace.

This is the best I can find:Gaza crisis: Who's who in Hamas - CNN.com. Khaled is currently in Qatar.

The Zionists are whining thread

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