The Zionists are whining thread

Luxer_sl said:

If the United States and Europe stopped subsidizing the settlements and using our veto at the UN I think that would be enough of an incentive for Israel to finally implement a two-state settlement on the official 67' border. It's not that complicated.

Your assertion that continued expansion is a solution to the violence makes no sense. If you really want the conflict to deescalate then give the Palestinians a viable state, it won't end the violence overnight but over time I think you would see it slowly dissipate.

Click to expand...

Unlikely. Neither one state or two state is viable. In the two state solution, you have the Palestinians continuing a war of reconquest. As you've noted, this is generations deep. They won't get a sanctioned state to call their own and decide, "Hey! We won! Lets start setting up social security programs, some workplace regulations, build a couple of roads, you know... peace stuff!" What they'll get is a sanctioned state protected by international treaty (and force) and use it to continue the war they're already fighting. The only possible terms of peace are the expulsion of the Jews from ancestral lands.

That is not rhetoric. They are not shy or deceptive in stating their goals. They are remarkably honest about their intention of continual warfare. Its goal, its means, its termination. It is nothing more than foolish to think that you know their intentions better than they do. It's not daring to be optimistic, it's not the audacity of hope. It's just not taking them seriously. I guess they don't really have to be that sly -- there are those who want an end to open hostility so badly, and for all the right reasons, that they're willing to pretend for the palestinians instead.

So I don't have the answer. But unless you can find an authority with actual authority to AGREE to peace, there can be no peace. That's what the Israeli's are talking about when they continually lament and drone on about so desperatelyneedinga partner in peace.

That's the best part, he actually made that point earlier. But then he started saying it's not complicated, all it would take is to persuade the West to pressure Israel---but he admitted how Palestinian antics make it impossible to persuade ANYONE.

It's hard to understand the idea of total war, because we don't fight that way anymore. As a superpower we both can't and don't have to. Our wars are limited in scope and nature. Even our great wars. The Greatest Generation isn't Greatest because they beat the Axis. That was pretty much inevitable -- and you could even say that they took their sweet time doing it. They're Greatest because in their Peace, they changed the nature of warfare itself for the western world.

That's not applicable to this situation. Limited wars are a luxury. If we lose in Afghanistan or Iraq... hey, our economy shits the bed and life sucks for about 10 or 15 years. We see a lot of men on the streets with peglegs and fucked up faces. But that's about as bad as it gets.

These are people fighting for their fucking identity and their survivalas they understand it. Wedon'tget it.

If their war were limited then sure, you could do either a single state or two state armistice and it'd work.

Never said that. Israel and the United States are the ones blocking the settlement, with the one exception being the Taba negotiations which almost worked. BDS represents nothing, as Finkelstein pointed out, which is why they can't get a Palestinian demonstration of more than 300 people. Most of the BDS activists are on college campus's who think they can create a single state solution, which would be a barrier of they actually represented the Palestianian's... which they don't.

As for the Palestinian "reconquest", that point has already in principle been conceded by the PLO and various Palestinian negotiators, just read the negotiations in Taba and post-Taba. They would give up the right of return in exchange for East Jerusalem and a stop to the settlements. 6 million Palestinians could not go back even if they wanted to, it's a moot point.

Finklestein's point applies as much to any Palestinian negotiator as much as it does to BDS. How do you propose to make a more persuasive case to the World than the Israelis when the whole world can see Fatah's leadership praising children attempting to stab their classmates on television?

How do you make the case for Palestinian good faith as peaceful neighbors when the only examples were their attempt to overthrow Jordan, their central role in the Lebanese Civil war and the rise of Hezbollah, the horrific militarization of Gaza after the Israelis handed that over peacefully and now even Ramallah telling kids to stab their classmates?

How do you persuade foreign donors to cease support to Israel whenIsrael has literally transformed desert into farmland, while foreign aid to Gaza disappears as cement for their smuggling tunnels and rockets?

Luxer_sl said:

Did I say Egypt beat Israel in the six day war? I said Egypt had adeterrentto constant Israeli expansion into Sinai. No one in the region can beat Israel militarily, with a small exception being a Pakistani nuclear strike. The fact that Israel would have to go to war to acquire more territories from Egypt, even if they would win, is a deterrent. The Palestinians have no deterrent at all, which is why they resorted to terrorist attacks against civilians. If they had a standing army with tanks and air force jets there would be no suicide bombings.

And your example of Israel yanking the settlers is laughable. Yes, they removed 10,000 people from subsidized settlements in Gaza and moved them into subsidized settlements in the West Bank. The settlement program was actually increased into the most important parts of the West Bank, namely the areas surround the crucial water resources. Again, this is why Israel refuses to implement to 2-state settlement... they want to keep annexing crucial parts of the West Bank so by the time a solution is implemented the map would already be different.

And as for the history, yes you can point to a few small scale massacres, but if you look at the period starting with the Inquisition through the 19th century it wasrelativelypeaceful.

Click to expand...

How is it laughable exactly? The Palestinians got Gaza, a veritable olive branch from thesuperior force, and instead of using it as a foundation for bigger and better peace, they utterly squandered it by using it to attack Israel.

And you still ignore the elephant in the room, refusing to address the pathological Nazi level Jew hatred that pervades Palestinian society, instead embracing willful blindness to the obvious fact that Palestinians simply can't live in peace next to Jews. Period. In fact, Muslims have demonstrated that they can't live near people of other faiths. Period. You continue to ascribe rational motives to the Palestinians, when in reality people who wish for their children to die while in the course of blowing up innocents, or people who make music videos that celebrate stabbings, ARE NOT RATIONAL.

You also still dodge the question as to a) who can actually negotiate peace with any authority on the Palestinian side and b) who can enforce said peace? Again, Palestinians can't even keep the peace amongst themselves, and that's WITH a common enemy of Israel.

When you're willing to address these two very significant obstacles for any hope at peace, get back to me.

And I'm glad that you've gone from "Muslims living side by side in peace with Jews" to just a "few massacres" lol.. That link didn't even include all the Jews butcheredoutsideof Palestine.. But I'm glad that the Muslims butchered the Jews "less" up until the 19th century..

As for the settlements, can you post a map of all the Palestinian land lost to Israel?

EDIT: Honestly, the only possibility for real peace that I can discern is one that would involve ceding Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan. Those two countries will jackboot the Palestinians into submission, and if there is any aggression towards Israel it will then be between two nation states with recognizable armies. That's probably the *only* circumstance that could convince Israel to cede East Jerusalem, but Israel will *never* let go of the Golan Heights because it would allow simple artillery fire to reach major Israeli population centers.

It is laughable for the reasons I said. A few videos of settlers leaving Gaza was a very successful PR campaign to try and show they are willing to compromise, meanwhile those same settlers plus many thousands more moved into new settlements in the West Bank which are of much more strategic importance because of the water resources and arable land.

As for the "elephant in the room" I never denied it. In fact, that's all that anyone talks about here in the West. To add a toothpick to that mountain would be about as important, at a moral level, as for an Iranian dissident to add a toothpick to the mountain of denunciations of Israeli crimes. Our government provides the diplomatic, financial, and military support for Israeli crimes, not Palestinian crimes.

As for who can negotiate for the Palestinians, you might actually want to read serious literature on the negotiations.. it is very eye opening. There's roughly a dozen or so high level Palestinian negotiators, like Saeb Erekat for example, who have been in talks with high level Israeli negotiators for years, and they almost came to an agreement in Taba.

If mexico were firing more than one rocket a year into the US they'd be our 51st State by now.

Luxer_sl said:

Did I say Egypt beat Israel in the six day war? I said Egypt had adeterrentto constant Israeli expansion into Sinai.

Click to expand...

The hell? You realize Israel owned that Peninsula after the war right? Like literally took it off Egypt. Then to make peace with Egypt they gave it back to them a decade later and forcibly removed their own settlements there (ONE settlement they had, which was right under Gaza)...During their occupation, only around 5k Jews moved to Sinai at all.

Do you really think the only reason Israel didn't expand was due to an army they beat, which is somehow preventing them from taking land they already gave back? lol.

Luxer_sl said:

It is laughable for the reasons I said. A few videos of settlers leaving Gaza was a very successful PR campaign to try and show they are willing to compromise, meanwhile those same settlers plus many thousands more moved into new settlements in the West Bank which are of much more strategic importance because of the water resources and arable land.

Click to expand...

So let me get this straight. 10,000 settlers are yanked kicking and screaming from homes they've lived in for 10+ years and moved into trailer parks, and you call it a PR sham? Are you fucking retarded? The fact remains that the Palestinians gained a huge swath of land and freedom from occupation, and the Israelis got nothing except a false promise of peace. And your claim that they were all moved to West Bank settlements is outright false. The majority were moved toNitzan BetandBnei Netzarim. Here's some further education on this "PR move".The Soldier, the Settler, and the Journalist: Remembering Israel's Withdrawal From Gaza | VICE News

And what did The Palestinians do with the settlements and greenhouses those evil Jews left behind?
Neve Dekalim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

luxer_sl said:

As for the "elephant in the room" I never denied it. In fact, that's all that anyone talks about here in the West. To add a toothpick to that mountain would be about as important, at a moral level, as for an Iranian dissident to add a toothpick to the mountain of denunciations of Israeli crimes. Our government provides the diplomatic, financial, and military support for Israeli crimes, not Palestinian crimes.

Click to expand...

You sure about that superstar?Palestinian Authority Rewards Terrorists for Number of Jews They Kill | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com
Where do you think the PA gets their money from? And you honestly expect Israel to trust these fucking people as Peace Partners?? These are the "moderates"??

lexar_sl said:

As for who can negotiate for the Palestinians, you might actually want to read serious literature on the negotiations.. it is very eye opening. There's roughly a dozen or so high level Palestinian negotiators, like Saeb Erekat for example, who have been in talks with high level Israeli negotiators for years, and they almost came to an agreement in Taba.

Click to expand...

You haven't been paying attention at all have you? I've (we) have already told you multiple times that 1) Palestinian "negotiators" are toothless because they don't speak for ALL Palestinians. What fucking good does any promise Saeb Erakat makes when Hamas doesn't recognize his authority? Or Islamic Jihad? Or any other group besides the PA? It would be like Chicago PD negotiating peace for the entire city by making a deal with a single gang who claims to speak for all thugs. Also, why the fuck should we take anything sock puppet Saeb says seriously when he's on Palestinian media calling for the stabbings and murder of Jews?

Meanwhile, a 80 year old woman and 70 year old man were stabbed by an East Jerusalem Palestinian today. This goes on every fucking day, yet you continue to apologize for these monsters, and make excuses for their shameless leaders.
80-year-old woman among 3 stabbed in Rishon Lezion terror attack | The Times of Israel

Here's an Arab that seems to get it better than you do.