Weight Loss Thread

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Ambiturner

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Never let anyone tell you there's a "best" way to workout. There's a lot of really shitty programs out there, but people's bodies can react very differently to the same workout.

Out of the 14 years I've been lifting weights, I've always done best on doing 5x5s while throwing in a couple sets (2-3) for smaller muscle groups.
 
Warmuth

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Ossoi_sl said:
Makes me laugh that people think they can dismiss something without reading it first. The kindle edition ofMens Fitness 12 Week Body Plan (Mens Health): Amazon.co.uk: Nick Mitchell, Joe Warner: Booksis literally a couple of pound, you can access it on your phone at the gym, and as well as having 12 weeks worth of workouts, it has a full nutrition, diet and supplement guide.

For anyone who wants to cut in the quickest amount of time possible, then I believe it's worth following - based on my own results and those of others that have completed the program.

This is the leg workout I did today, took me an hour. Now if anyone wants to argue that going to the gym and doing 5 sets of 5 squats is going to be equivalent or superior to that, then be my guest

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JFC 20 sets of squats? I'm done after 4 sets. Add deadlifts for 3 more sets and I can barely walk properly. Seems more like a cardio work out.
 
Eidal

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Ossoi how much do you weigh and what weight are you squatting? That's 150 squats with a 0 (?) or 60 second rest in between sets? I must be missing something.
 
Ossoi

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Warmuth_sl said:
JFC 20 sets of squats? I'm done after 4 sets. Add deadlifts for 3 more sets and I can barely walk properly. Seems more like a cardio work out.
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It's primarily a fat loss program, designed to get someone into fitness model condition in 12 weeks, so your comment is valid.

That's just 3 workouts out of 48 and some of the other leg workouts are lower rep/heavier weight oriented
 
Eidal

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Ossoi_sl said:
It's primarily a fat loss program, designed to get someone into fitness model condition in 12 weeks, so your comment is valid.

That's just 3 workouts out of 48 and some of the other leg workouts are lower rep/heavier weight oriented
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LiterallyeverythingI have read implies that your program is bad. Fitness models spend years building mass and cut body fat prior to a shoot -- you aren't going to build any mass in 12 weeks if you're cutting, and if you're not, then you'll build 4-6 pounds under optimal conditions. You see on the title of the book you linked "Build muscle" followed by "Burn fat". You can do one or the other -- if you try to do both (which is possible for beginners) prepare yourself for how slow it is. This makes sense intuitively; if you're operating under a caloric deficit, it is not in your bodies interest to continue getting larger. This is why people eat a surplus when they're bulking, and eat a deficit when they're cutting.

I'm curious what your stats (height/weight/bf) and how strong you are (squat 1rm).

But hell, I'm a newb and learning -- are you getting results? Do you look like a fitness model yet?

EDIT -- Ossoi, here is an excerpt from the Amazon page you linked:

The 12 Week Body Plan is the complete guide to building the body you have always wanted. It details everything that world-leading trainer Nick Mitchell did with Men's Fitness deputy editor Joe Warner to add 10kg of muscle and lose 8kg of body fat in just 12 weeks...
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The claim that this guy gained 22 pounds of muscle WHILE losing 18 pounds of fat in three months is simply bullshit. This MIGHT be possible with steroids, but that isn't my area of expertise. But for someone trying to get lean/strong naturally, these numbers are completely impossible. These types of claims are common with snake-oil products in the fitness industry.
 
Ossoi

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Eidal_sl said:
The claim that this guy gained 22 pounds of muscle WHILE losing 18 pounds of fat in three months is simply bullshit. This MIGHT be possible with steroids, but that isn't my area of expertise. But for someone trying to get lean/strong naturally, these numbers are completely impossible. These types of claims are common with snake-oil products in the fitness industry.
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LOL, it's easily achievable - the guy in question had not lifted weights with any real conviction prior to starting the program. And he worked out 4x a week under the direct supervision of the guy that wrote the book, and who owns a chain of PT only gyms across the World , he also had every supplement recommended in the book on tap. <-- basically they took noob gains to the next level.

I'll agree that such results are not achievable for everyone - there's a reason they used someone that had not lifted weights seriously to run the program and then market it around his results.

But here are some results from regular guys that followed the program12 Week Body Plan Transformations | CarlGottlieb.com


As for my own results - I've posted this before but you seem relatively new to the thread so I'll repeat myself.

Started lifting weights last February at a PT only gym, - similar methodology/principles as to Nick Mitchell - both Nick and my PT are strongly influenced by Charles Poliquin when it comes to body composition. Was 5'11 and 83kg, 23% body fat....by August I was 73-74kg and 9.9% body fat, so I'd actually gained 6kg of muscle in the process.

Started training by myself from November and started a bulk - post Christmas indulgence I found it a lot harder to be strict with my diet, and by March I was back up to 81-82kg and probably around 15% body fat. Haven't had my BF measured by the PT since I started training solo but I definitely lost a lot of definition in my abs.

Since April I've been a lot stricter and I'm aiming to be back to 10% or lower by July - Mid July at the latest. I'm currently 76.5kg

This was me today after a chest and arms workout. I'll go back to the PT and get him to measure my BF once I'm back down to 73-74kg. I'm confident that I'll have more lean muscle mass than when I was the same weight last year.
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I don't know what my 1rm on squats would be, cause I've never tested it. On deadlifts it's 140kg.
 
Eidal

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Ossoi_sl said:
LOL, it's easily achievable - the guy in question had not lifted weights with any real conviction prior to starting the program.
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No man -- even a fresh novice isn't gaining 6+ lbs of LBM per month. Whatever. It's pointless to continue discussing this point.

What I'd like to clarify is that I am not saying your program won't show results -- pretty much any healthy diet combined with moving heavy things will show results. It's all about efficiency; this is how I gauge a workout. How efficiently does it allow you to achieve your goals? You've been lifting for over a year and you're pulling 300 -- this is abysmally slow progression. Any novice beginning a 5x5 will hit 300 within 6 months -- at which point they can transition to a more intermediate program should they desire (although it seems like sticking with a beginner progression until pulling 2xBW is "optimal). This combination of horrible strength gain + ridiculous claims just makes this "12 week look like a model" program even more laughable.

I'm not calling you weak. I'm calling you misinformed and led astray by a program wasting your time and making bullshit claims to draw in other ignorant people who think 6lbs of muscle a month with "all the supplements" is achievable.
 
Ossoi

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Eidal_sl said:
No man -- even a fresh novice isn't gaining 6+ lbs of LBM per month. Whatever. It's pointless to continue discussing this point.
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In your opinion.

4 sessions a week for 12 weeks at as close to maximum intensity as possible, under the direct supervision of one of the Worlds leading body composition experts. With maximum diet/nutrition compliance and every possible supplement you'll ever need - I believe it's possible


Eidal_sl said:
You've been lifting for over a year and you're pulling 300 -- this is abysmally slow progression. Any novice beginning a 5x5 will hit 300 within 6 months --
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Eidal_sl said:
It's all about efficiency; this is how I gauge a workout. How efficiently does it allow you to achieve your goals?
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Rofl, when did I say I was training for strength? The reason I joined a PT gym was aesthetics/body composition. I told my PT upon sign up I just wanted to get lean and didn't care about being muscular. My goals have changed since then and I'm not adverse to adding muscle - my aim is 80kg at 10% body fat and then I'll reassess my goals.

You're using a lot of assumptions to debunk my program "oh your strength is shitty, what a shitty program" even though I posted a link to said program with the words "TO CUT" right next to it. This is the weight loss thread, hence me recommending a CUTTING program.

As for efficiency, my whole argument in favour of the 12wbp has been that I feel it's going to get someone lean a lot quicker than a "regular" program - sure, there may be some compromises in terms of strength and muscle gains (if you are an experienced lifter) BUT THAT IS NOT THE AIM OF THE PROGRAM, jesus christ.

And P.S I've only been working on the deadlift since April - I do 3 sessions a week from the 12 week plan, and the 4th session is me pushing the deadlift and finishing off with weighted chins and some ab work - just because I really enjoy doing deadlifts, and on my first session with my PT, I couldn't even do one chinup and he had to lift me to the bar so I could just do the negative part - ever since then I've been super motivated to get good at chinups.

So yeah, your last post was about 99% irrelevant.

And if you want to keep on debunking a book that you've never read, by all means go ahead.
 
Eidal

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Ossoi_sl said:
In your opinion.
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This isn't my opinion. This is the opinion of three very well respected names in fitness/nutrition:

Lyle Mcdonald's Opinion (http://www.bodyrecompisition.com):General Philosophies of Muscle Mass Gain | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
How Fast Can You Actually Gain Muscle Mass?
We live in an instant gratification society and are constantly bombarded with amazing claims; while this is probably most true in the world of weight loss, it's not much different when it comes to muscle gain.
Magazines advertise 20 pounds or rock hard muscle in a mere 8-10 weeks, a supplement promises 5 lbs of muscle in 3 days or whatever; all around we see claims of rapid gains in muscle mass. Sadly, this is all basically bullshit. Yeah, with glycogen loading or creatine you can increase lean body mass (not the same as muscle mass) fairly rapidly but beyond that, skeletal muscle actually grows fairly slowly.
How slowly?
On average, a natural male doing everything right will be doing very well to gain 1/2 of pound muscle per week. A female might gain half that or about 1/2 pound muscle every 2 weeks.
Let's put that in perspective: over a full year of training, assuming the trainee is doing everything right, that's 26 pounds of the good stuff for men (13 pounds for women). Which, if you think about it, actually isn't that awful. It's simply awful compared to what people think they are going to get based on the false promises in the magazines (or the claims of drug using bodybuilders).

Alan Aragon's Opinion (http://www.alanaragon.com):


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Alan Aragon is an exercise physiologist who is constantly staying on top of the latest exercise and nutrition research. In a monthly Research Review, he addressed the issue of rates of muscle gain in terms of percentage gain for natural lifters. Here's what he came up with:

How Fast Can You Build Muscle Chart #2: The Alan Aragon Model

This means a 130lb teenager who never has lifted weights might gain 1.3-1.95 pounds of muscle per month (15-23 pounds per year) in a year with a great lifting program and eating plan. After a year, he's now at around 155lb and might be capable of gaining 0.77-1.55 lbs per month (9-18 pounds per year.

Martin Berkhan's Opinion (Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health)...

Everyone stating that it is possible, under optimal conditions, to gain roughly 2 lbs of muscle a month define optimal conditions as eating an excess of calories. NOT eating a deficit. Hence, why the claims made for your program are straight nonsense.

I didn't mean to imply that your goal was strength. I understand that your goal is aesthetics, but all that really means is you want to build muscle and maintain a low body fat. My argument is that your program is inefficient and directly contradicts everything I've read regarding what is possible and achievable. I understand why they make these claims; if you want to sell programs to the gullible you can say anything you want.

On a side-note; what supplements are you hinting at that would magnify LBM gain? My understanding is that protein is crucial and creatine has demonstratable beneficial effects. What else is there that these guys would use to achieve a 300 percent muscle gain while also cutting body fat at an aggressive 1-1.5lbs a week? Hint:Discuss safe steroid usage and ask questions.
 
Ossoi

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Eidal_sl said:
This isn't my opinion. This is the opinion of three very well respected names in fitness/nutrition:
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We had this discussion last week. Someone that is overweight/out of shape and has never lifted before, can burn fat and gain muscle at the same time if they start lifting properly and follow the correct diet

If I can go from 80kg and 23% body fat to 74kg and 10% in 6 months, gaining 6kg of lean muscle along the way - knowing far less about nutrition, my body, how to count calories, proper form, mind muscle connection etc etc than I do today and with nights out, holidays, cheat days etc that interrupted my progress - then it is easy for me to believe that someone, training under the direct supervision of one of the Worlds leading body composition experts and who applies themself with more discipline than I did, supplements etc can achieve similar results in half the time.




Ossoi_sl said:
Nick Mitchell, the guy in the videos, is about as credible as it gets imo.
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Eidal_sl said:
I didn't mean to imply that your goal was strength. I understand that your goal is aesthetics, but all that really means is you want to build muscle and maintain a low body fat. My argument is that your program is inefficient and directly contradicts everything I've read regarding what is possible and achievable.
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HOW MANY TIMES? CAN YOU READ? The 12 week body plan is a FAT LOSS GUIDE, "all that really means" is that it's for people that want to lose body fat. As stated above, someone that has never lifted before, can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

I am cutting to 8-10% "which really means" I want to lose body fat, hence why I'm using a "FAT LOSS GUIDE" We'll see how much lean muscle mass (if any)I've gained since November when I go back to my PT and he measures my BF. Once I'm at 8-10% I'll start bulking, and then my priority will be building muscle. Jesus, I don't know what is so hard to understand about the fact that someone who has stated a) they want to cut and b) is following a fat loss guide - how you interpret that as "wanting to build muscle and maintain a low body fat" is beyond me.

Eidal_sl said:
My argument is that your program is inefficient and directly contradicts everything I've read regarding what is possible and achievable.
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That's the program that a) you haven't read and b) you're claiming its inefficient for things that are different to the purpose of the program.

Your posts are the equivalent of me buying a Ferrari because I want a fast car, and you coming along and going "LOL YOUR CAR IS SO INEFFICIENT BECAUSE IT USES SO MUCH FUEL, AND LIKE, WHERE ARE YOU GONNA PUT YOUR LUGGAGE!"
 
McQueen

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I bet it's totally possible for a beginner to get those numberswith a fat stack of steroids and hgh. Otherwise? Not a chance in hell.
 
Eidal

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Relax Ossoi, I'm just poking fun at your program because they are liars. If you're happy with the results then that's what matters. You said 6kg but the math you gave says 5kg. 5kg muscle (11lbs) in 6 months is great work, and so is 11kg (24lbs) fat loss. I do not doubt you achieved that -- this makes sense and jives with all that I've read. I am well aware that beginners can re-comp effectively, especially men with fat to lose.

My major gripe is the book you linked promising far more than that in half the time -- feel free to believe that "expert supervision" + "all the supplements" = you are no longer bound by human limitations in muscle synthesis. You are correct that I didn't read the book; I looked at the cover and the description. They are liars, plain and simple. They may have an effective plan... but, as you pointed out, practically anything is effective for a beginner.

Ossoi_sl said:
Ahh yes, the guy who, after however many years in the fitness industry, is still using blogspot to host his site and is doing online training out of his bedroom.
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Whatever man, I linked three for a reason.
 
Ossoi

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Eidal_sl said:
My major gripe is the book you linked promising far more than that in half the time -- feel free to believe that "expert supervision" + "all the supplements" = you are no longer bound by human limitations in muscle synthesis..
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If you can find where it promises that someone can replicate those results exactly, I'll paypal you ?100


Eidal_sl said:
Whatever man, I linked three for a reason.
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I only highlighted that because the guy who wrote the book,Fitness Advice From Londons Best Personal Trainer, founded a business that has 2 PT only gyms in London, 1 in Hong Kong and one in Singapore, and his gyms are where people such as Charles Poliquin and Ben Pakulski train whenever they are in the UK. Quite a comparison to Berkhan, who's done nothing by comparison.

You should check out his sites, they're great resources.
 
Eidal

Eidal

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Ossoi_sl said:
If you can find where it promises that someone can replicate those results exactly, I'll paypal you ?100
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I don't want your money. This is what I'm referring to.
rrr_img_69229.jpg


If your point now is that the book doesn'tpromisethis, well... technically you are correct. They are straight up lying about the results someone else had in order to sell their product. This sucks for kids who buy these mags, try these programs, and get discouraged/frustrated with their results.
 
McQueen

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If that isn't what that shyster is selling, he wouldn't be making that claim in all of his advertising. PayPal the man his money.
 
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