Weight Loss Thread
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Cad
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Yea, but thats similar to how testosterone is "normal" from like 100 to 900... but a 900 test individual is going to be clearly different. "Normal" just means "not a health issue" doesn't mean optimal or anything of the sort.
Warmuth
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Warmuth
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Within the normal range of test there's no real difference. Thats why its a normal range.
Dandai
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I couldn't disagree with that assertion more. The reason there's such a wide range for "normal" is because they've determined that people within that range meet a certain health criteria. Before there were tests for testosterone and thyroid activity they medicated you and determined whether you had a problem or not based on whether the medication alleviated your symptoms. In other words, just because there's a range and you fall within it doesn't mean that you won't be symptomatic for hypothyroid or low testosterone.
Khane
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Yea but if 100-900 is really considered the normal range that's kind of crazy since the top end is 800% more than the bottom end. If you have a range of 3100-3900 that's a lot different in terms of difference between top and bottom than 100-900 is.
And for every guy in this thread who has been severely overweight and lost or is losing a bunch of it be prepared for your Testosterone levels to skyrocket. Obesity lowers T levels proportionally to how overweight you are, the more obese the less testosterone you produce. When I lost 100 lbs back when I was 20 my T levels skyrocketed and I was completely unprepared because I was also starting to lift. At first I was doing really ridiculous shit like getting a little buzzed at parties and running around yelling at people to feel my biceps.
FEEL IT!!! GO AHEAD, FEEEEEEEL IT!!!! Absurdity.
And for every guy in this thread who has been severely overweight and lost or is losing a bunch of it be prepared for your Testosterone levels to skyrocket. Obesity lowers T levels proportionally to how overweight you are, the more obese the less testosterone you produce. When I lost 100 lbs back when I was 20 my T levels skyrocketed and I was completely unprepared because I was also starting to lift. At first I was doing really ridiculous shit like getting a little buzzed at parties and running around yelling at people to feel my biceps.
FEEL IT!!! GO AHEAD, FEEEEEEEL IT!!!! Absurdity.
Warmuth
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That's a persons relative level and isn't the same thing. Two men with roughly similar physical health and activity can have wildly different levels of testosterone within that range. There's no inherent advantage for the guy with the higher number. The guy with the lower overall number could easily be more energetic, bigger, stronger, agressive etc. Its just a number that's used to determine "yeah when we see you're from here to here youre completely normal" because that's where normal healthy people test at with no symptoms of low T. Every single person has different sensitivity to it.
Khane
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Dandai
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It doesn't make sense to you because it doesn't make sense. He's saying there's no difference then saying everyone everyone has a different sensitivity so there's a huge difference. It's like Orwellian double speak. No matter what your position is, he's right.
Noodleface
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Hi, I am Noodleface and I have a problem. I'm 230 6'3" of not goodness. Today is the beginning of my change - doctors orders.
I'll just be weight lifting in my basement like some sort of freak and running. I've been changing my diet around a bit, so hoping for the best.
I'll just be weight lifting in my basement like some sort of freak and running. I've been changing my diet around a bit, so hoping for the best.
Dandai
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It's a rough road when you don't have a strong desire to lose weight. Hopefully you'll find something that helps keep you motivated. For me it's the irregular eye candy at the gym (inconsistent rewards being more psychologically rewarding and all that). The basement gym is good for time-efficiency, but I find it hard to be consistent (or take it as seriously) with that setup.
Everybody's different, but I'll say that it's much easier for me (psychologically) to restrict what I eat than to kill myself running and being more physically active.
Everybody's different, but I'll say that it's much easier for me (psychologically) to restrict what I eat than to kill myself running and being more physically active.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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I don't really think he's right on that because you rarely ever see some lean athlete with low T and you never see some high T monster who has a microdick and no muscle. The amount of T in your body has a gigantic effect on you in general and not just your muscles. To say "the level doesn't matter" is just... insanity. They wouldn't ever bother testing it if that were the case they'd just go off of symptoms.
Warmuth
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You're not following. If your test measures 450 that doesn't mean you're experiencing less overall benefit than the guy next to you who's at 1000. That's what the natural range is. The guy at 450 could even have more free test which is usually more important. In general people cannot naturally raise their test levels higher than that which supports healthy function which is why the normal range for T is not 1000-1100ng/dl. For some people 1100 would actually be supra physiological and you'll see this from some guys who go on TRT and get to the highest "normal" range. They can end up on anti estrogen medications and develop high blood pressure, lipids etc..... because they are in effect on steroids. They do not react to that level of testosterone the same way someone does who naturally maintains it. That's why they don't produce it naturally, they don't need to and it can cause issues. They can fix it simply by dropping to a lower level in the "normal" range.
Steroids and TRT are entirely different from natural production. They raise testosterone and or androgen levels higher than is naturally possible resulting in increased effects. You can't trick your body into it, you've got to use an exogenous hormone. Even in that case when you compare people on the same dose they don't get the same results, just like the case of natural production. Some people are going to experience greater benefit than others.
Steroids and TRT are entirely different from natural production. They raise testosterone and or androgen levels higher than is naturally possible resulting in increased effects. You can't trick your body into it, you've got to use an exogenous hormone. Even in that case when you compare people on the same dose they don't get the same results, just like the case of natural production. Some people are going to experience greater benefit than others.
Cad
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But warmuth, that is not the same thing as saying anywhere between 100 and 900 is ok and doesn't matter. The dude at 150 is undoubtedly going to have some low T symptoms and the guy at 890 is not. Exceptions are exceptions but I'd say thats true for 99% of cases.
Eidal
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Cite your sources please. Across a fair sample size, the gap between 300 and 900 would be completely fucking obvious. I've read countless stories of men who test in the lower areas of normal, then get on TRT, and feel fucking incredible at high normal.
Khane
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And the increase in testosterone is why you bulk up.... What are you even saying? Nevermind.
Warmuth
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The level is 350-1100 or thereabouts so yes 100 would be classified as hypogonadal and you'd get on TRT.
If you're at 350 and you use exogenous test to raise your level to 900 you'll absolutely feel it. It is not the same as natural 900 levels, at all. I have read plenty of posts from guys up in that range on TRT who had to lower their dose because it was too high. Point to a single person with high natural T who will be told they need to lower it due to side effects. TRT can make your test level higher than your body would ever allow you to produce. Two guys at a level of 900 do not react the same, that's why they have different natural levels.
Point is, if I have a work out partner and we have the same activity leveland program and roughly the same diet he can be bigger, more muscular and more energetic at a T level of 400 even if mines much higher. Why? Because we both are within the normal range naturally and now you're into genetics territory.
Sure, you want to maximize your own production but to think you are at some disadvantage just because you have lower test , naturally, than someone else is false all other things being roughly equal.
If you're at 350 and you use exogenous test to raise your level to 900 you'll absolutely feel it. It is not the same as natural 900 levels, at all. I have read plenty of posts from guys up in that range on TRT who had to lower their dose because it was too high. Point to a single person with high natural T who will be told they need to lower it due to side effects. TRT can make your test level higher than your body would ever allow you to produce. Two guys at a level of 900 do not react the same, that's why they have different natural levels.
Point is, if I have a work out partner and we have the same activity leveland program and roughly the same diet he can be bigger, more muscular and more energetic at a T level of 400 even if mines much higher. Why? Because we both are within the normal range naturally and now you're into genetics territory.
Sure, you want to maximize your own production but to think you are at some disadvantage just because you have lower test , naturally, than someone else is false all other things being roughly equal.
Warmuth
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Don't twist the argument. This isn't about whether higher or not higher test gets you gains. It about comparing two natural guys with differing test levels and automatically assuming the one with the higher number performs better.
Cad
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I think you'd need to do a whole workup, it wouldn't be JUST test levels that make one guy have more energy, gains and strength. But I guarantee you you could look at two guys and one of them has better "genetics" and the better genetics guy has a more advantageous overall endocrine workup than the other guy.
Khane
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I'm not twisting you're argument. You're saying Testosterone makes no difference, except when it does. Literally.