Lanx
<Prior Amod>
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Weight Loss Thread
- Thread starter Sean_sl
- Start date
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
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If at all possible, eat your meal before 6:30 if you want I’ll look up the information about that.
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Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
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Effects of consuming later evening meal v. earlier evening meal on weight loss during a weight loss diet: a randomised clinical trial - PubMed
Previous evidence confirms a relationship between the timing of food intake and weight loss. We aimed to evaluate the effect of late v. early evening meal (EEM) consumption on weight loss and cardiometabolic risk factors in women during a weight loss programme. Eighty-two healthy women (BMI...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Meal timing influences daily caloric intake in healthy adults - PubMed
The role that meal pattern plays in weight regulation is a popular topic of scientific and common debate. The goal of this study was to evaluate the relationship between meal timing with caloric intake and body mass index (BMI). We hypothesized that late meal timing and eating closer to sleep...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I’ve got more if you want.
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Lanx
<Prior Amod>
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So
Burnem Wizfyre
has repeatedly argued that him starting at 300lbs+ and going down to 180lbs is somehow comparable to me starting at 180lbs and going down to 158-160lbs. And that because I "only" lost 20lbs then that means a) I wasn't optimising what I was doing b) that he could have done betterI tried to explain to him why it's retarded to compare the two (and he even acknowledged that we have different goals) but he didn't seem to grasp, so here's the actual data (to go with the photos, the MFP logs and the 4.5 years of daily weight data I've already provided to back up my arguments:
Here's my two DXA scans, six months apart. The first was a month or so before I started using an online coach, he revised my macros every week and gave me a training program.
You can see that over the six months, I gained 9.4lbs of lean mass and and 4.3lbs of fat.
The point of showing this is to get an idea of how much body fat/lean mass I started with for the 9 week cut of 17lbs that
Burnem Wizfyre
claims wasn't "maximising". Don't have any more DEXA's but I think it's fairly safe to use the above figures for this comparison:
12kg / 26.4lbs body fat
70kg / 154lbs lean mass
81.8kg / 180lbs starting weight on 18 May 2020
18 July 2020 I was 73.8kg / 162lbs
2kg / 4.4lbs of that was probably water weight, from being on lower carbs.
So that leaves 13lbs to come off, the majority of which would be fat - because I was still training and keeping protein high to minimise muscle loss.
So from 26lbs starting body fat, I lost 13lbs of body fat.
So 162lbs body weight, 13lbs body fat = 8% body fat.
__________________________________
I tried to explain to him that:
a) you have zero experience of being close to 10% body fat, let alone being in single digit figures
b) when you are this low on body fat it obviously becomes slower / harder to keep losing fat
c) to get lower I would have to keep reducing calories e.g 1200, carbs would be minimal (20g or less) and I would have to increase my activity (from 10k steps per day to 15k-20k)
Needless to say, it isn't as easy as he thinks it is.
I wasn't doing this for a show or anything, but for a holiday
______________________________
Yes, this is borderline autistic, but it's another example of how someone with ZERO experience in the actual field is trying to lecture someone who's literally in the trenches.
Everytime he's been presented with similar data and asked to concede/retract, he doubled down - which is why this thread got derailed
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Ossoi, sub 10 percent body fat is within your grasp and its very very simple. ZERO exercise necessary:
(this was actually a very good movie I saw some years ago, i'll need to put it up on the movie recommendations thread, but your quest for zero fat brought it back to my mind)
(this was actually a very good movie I saw some years ago, i'll need to put it up on the movie recommendations thread, but your quest for zero fat brought it back to my mind)
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Randomly saw this on Twitter just now, Bill knows his stuff.
Another example of why lecturing someone like me about fasting, who as I stated multiple times is interested in body composition over just "weight loss", was retarded
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Faux
Lord Nagafen Raider
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This is probably a really bad idea, but I thought I would weigh in here. For background, I am dentist (make fun of me all you want for that) and that means I have completed 4 years of post-college education in all the normal subjects (anatomy, physiology, microbiology, immunology, etc...). That doesn't make me an expert on anything, but I just list it to show that I am no stranger to scientific journals or peer-reviewed research.
I have a strong interest in nutrition and have done a lot of research on the topic. I have read Dr. Fung's books and watched the YouTube Channels that Burnem is referencing, such as Dr. Eric Berg, Thomas Delauer, etc....
I read the last few pages and thought I would chime in on a few topics.
First off, I saw a lot of hangups on the discussion about calorie restriction and metabolism. Fasting is obviously a form of calorie restriction, but when we talk about metabolism, calorie restriction is an incomplete equation. I think Dr. Fung goes into this in his video about "The two compartment problem". Your body reduces your metabolism when its energy needs exceed its available energy consistently. Eating in a calorie restricted manner doesn't mean your body can't meet its energy needs necessarily. Take someone like Ossoi who is in very good shape. He works out regularly and has low body fat. From my understanding his metabolism isn't effected by his calorie restriction because it can access the energy not received through his caloric intake from fast stores because his insulin is well regulated. As his metabolism burns through the glucose energy, insulin levels fall (because insulin is related to blood glucose levels in a healthy person without insulin resistance problems) and he can access stored fat for energy. So even eating plenty of carbs, he can still lose fat, because his metabolism is high enough to use what he is eating and he has access to his fat stores for anything extra he needs. His metabolism stays healthy because his body gets all the energy it needs and he cuts fat at the same time.
Now take someone that is more average that is not starting from the same point as Ossoi. Take someone even mildly insulin resistant who gets way less exercise. Every time, they eat, they spike their insulin to remove glucose from their bloodstream like we all do. But they can't move the glucose into storage as fast, they don't burn it off as fast, and their insulin stays elevated for a longer period of time. Say that person eats 500 calories less than their body needs. That is a person that will see metabolic slowdown, because without access to stored fat, their body cannot meet its energy needs. And that access is regulated by Insulin.
Both Ossoi and that person have the same hormone response, but Ossoi uses the glucose faster and his insulin drops faster. No metabolic slow down for him.
From all of my research, it seems pretty clear that you cannot access the energy stored in fatty tissue with high insulin. High insulin consistently leads to insulin resistance. Increased resistance leads to your body making more and more insulin, which leads to more resistance...now you have diabetes. Conventional diabetes treatments seem to be an attempt to mask symptoms rather than treat a diseases. Your body cannot remove the high amounts of glucose from your blood, so you throw more and more insulin at it to force feed glucose to your adipose tissue. Those people will not lose weight no matter how many calories they restrict because they are never getting that energy out of their fat cells with so much insulin in circulation. Yes, I realize I said never and thats a bit dramatic. I'm sure there are outliers out there.
This is getting long, so let me switch gears before no one reads the rest of this. Some posters jumped on Burnem for being in a calorie restricted diet as well, i.e. Starving himself. But its not the same thing. He is an calorie deficit, but not an energy deficit. During fasts, his body happily consumes energy from stored fat, exactly how it has evolved to do. Metabolism stays normal since his body has all the energy it needs. Naturally, this would reach a plateau as he burns through his fat stores. Someone like Ossoi, who has very little stored fat, would not benefit from such a practice because he would truely be in a starvation situation after he burned through all his glucose energy. He would have access to fat stores, which would quite literally be a nearly empty tank.
Intermittent fasting to lose excess weight is just allowing your body to do what it has evolved to do in a safe and efficient way. Its literally allowing your body to operate as it evolved to operate. Store fat when you have excess food, burn fat when you have insufficient food. Not helpful or even safe at low body fat percentages. And finally Insulin regulates all of this access to stored fat. Both Ossoi and Burnem are subject to the same hormonal regulation, they are just at different points on the spectrum.
And I think it was Kirun asking about metabolism during fasting. One contributing factor I think in the increased metabolism is there is supposedly a really large jump in HGH during fasting and formation of lean muscle mass. I want to say it happens around the 36 hour mark, but I'll have to go research that some more. It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint though. If we got sluggish/tired/weak after fasting for a day, the species would have died out long ago
Thats enough for now.
I have a strong interest in nutrition and have done a lot of research on the topic. I have read Dr. Fung's books and watched the YouTube Channels that Burnem is referencing, such as Dr. Eric Berg, Thomas Delauer, etc....
I read the last few pages and thought I would chime in on a few topics.
First off, I saw a lot of hangups on the discussion about calorie restriction and metabolism. Fasting is obviously a form of calorie restriction, but when we talk about metabolism, calorie restriction is an incomplete equation. I think Dr. Fung goes into this in his video about "The two compartment problem". Your body reduces your metabolism when its energy needs exceed its available energy consistently. Eating in a calorie restricted manner doesn't mean your body can't meet its energy needs necessarily. Take someone like Ossoi who is in very good shape. He works out regularly and has low body fat. From my understanding his metabolism isn't effected by his calorie restriction because it can access the energy not received through his caloric intake from fast stores because his insulin is well regulated. As his metabolism burns through the glucose energy, insulin levels fall (because insulin is related to blood glucose levels in a healthy person without insulin resistance problems) and he can access stored fat for energy. So even eating plenty of carbs, he can still lose fat, because his metabolism is high enough to use what he is eating and he has access to his fat stores for anything extra he needs. His metabolism stays healthy because his body gets all the energy it needs and he cuts fat at the same time.
Now take someone that is more average that is not starting from the same point as Ossoi. Take someone even mildly insulin resistant who gets way less exercise. Every time, they eat, they spike their insulin to remove glucose from their bloodstream like we all do. But they can't move the glucose into storage as fast, they don't burn it off as fast, and their insulin stays elevated for a longer period of time. Say that person eats 500 calories less than their body needs. That is a person that will see metabolic slowdown, because without access to stored fat, their body cannot meet its energy needs. And that access is regulated by Insulin.
Both Ossoi and that person have the same hormone response, but Ossoi uses the glucose faster and his insulin drops faster. No metabolic slow down for him.
From all of my research, it seems pretty clear that you cannot access the energy stored in fatty tissue with high insulin. High insulin consistently leads to insulin resistance. Increased resistance leads to your body making more and more insulin, which leads to more resistance...now you have diabetes. Conventional diabetes treatments seem to be an attempt to mask symptoms rather than treat a diseases. Your body cannot remove the high amounts of glucose from your blood, so you throw more and more insulin at it to force feed glucose to your adipose tissue. Those people will not lose weight no matter how many calories they restrict because they are never getting that energy out of their fat cells with so much insulin in circulation. Yes, I realize I said never and thats a bit dramatic. I'm sure there are outliers out there.
This is getting long, so let me switch gears before no one reads the rest of this. Some posters jumped on Burnem for being in a calorie restricted diet as well, i.e. Starving himself. But its not the same thing. He is an calorie deficit, but not an energy deficit. During fasts, his body happily consumes energy from stored fat, exactly how it has evolved to do. Metabolism stays normal since his body has all the energy it needs. Naturally, this would reach a plateau as he burns through his fat stores. Someone like Ossoi, who has very little stored fat, would not benefit from such a practice because he would truely be in a starvation situation after he burned through all his glucose energy. He would have access to fat stores, which would quite literally be a nearly empty tank.
Intermittent fasting to lose excess weight is just allowing your body to do what it has evolved to do in a safe and efficient way. Its literally allowing your body to operate as it evolved to operate. Store fat when you have excess food, burn fat when you have insufficient food. Not helpful or even safe at low body fat percentages. And finally Insulin regulates all of this access to stored fat. Both Ossoi and Burnem are subject to the same hormonal regulation, they are just at different points on the spectrum.
And I think it was Kirun asking about metabolism during fasting. One contributing factor I think in the increased metabolism is there is supposedly a really large jump in HGH during fasting and formation of lean muscle mass. I want to say it happens around the 36 hour mark, but I'll have to go research that some more. It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint though. If we got sluggish/tired/weak after fasting for a day, the species would have died out long ago
Thats enough for now.
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Faux
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Here is a statement regarding Growth Hormone timing and fasting
This doesn't appear to have any real effect on metabolism based on another study I just read, but at least it should be protective towards lean muscle mass in short term fasting.
Here is the full study.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Edit: I'm not finding a whole lot on fasting boosting metabolism. I have heard the claim before. So even though Ossoi called him a Quack, here is an interesting video of Dr. Fung talking about Fasting and Metabolism.
He says that the metabolic boost comes mainly from an increase in adrenaline production which is needed to mobilize fat stores for energy. I can't find anything that quantifies the metabolic increase, so maybe its just a "Hey look, not only does fasting protect your metabolism, but it even boosts it a little bit" kind of thing.
This doesn't appear to have any real effect on metabolism based on another study I just read, but at least it should be protective towards lean muscle mass in short term fasting.
Here is the full study.
Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man.
Studies in man have shown that the episodic release of growth hormone (GH) is infrequent and erratic, and unlike that in the rat does not appear to have discernible ultradian periodicities. However, these observations in nonfasted subjects may be invalid ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Edit: I'm not finding a whole lot on fasting boosting metabolism. I have heard the claim before. So even though Ossoi called him a Quack, here is an interesting video of Dr. Fung talking about Fasting and Metabolism.
He says that the metabolic boost comes mainly from an increase in adrenaline production which is needed to mobilize fat stores for energy. I can't find anything that quantifies the metabolic increase, so maybe its just a "Hey look, not only does fasting protect your metabolism, but it even boosts it a little bit" kind of thing.
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Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
- 12,314
- 21,385
Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
- 12,314
- 21,385
Here is a statement regarding Growth Hormone timing and fasting
This doesn't appear to have any real effect on metabolism based on another study I just read, but at least it should be protective towards lean muscle mass in short term fasting.
Here is the full study.
Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man.
Studies in man have shown that the episodic release of growth hormone (GH) is infrequent and erratic, and unlike that in the rat does not appear to have discernible ultradian periodicities. However, these observations in nonfasted subjects may be invalid ...
Edit: I'm not finding a whole lot on fasting boosting metabolism. I have heard the claim before. So even though Ossoi called him a Quack, here is an interesting video of Dr. Fung talking about Fasting and Metabolism.
He says that the metabolic boost comes mainly from an increase in adrenaline production which is needed to mobilize fat stores for energy. I can't find anything that quantifies the metabolic increase, so maybe its just a "Hey look, not only does fasting protect your metabolism, but it even boosts it a little bit" kind of thing.
Effects of fasting on blood plasma levels, metabolism and metabolic effects of epinephrine and norepinephrine in steers - PubMed
Experiments were designed to study effects of 3 days of fasting on blood plasma levels, metabolic clearance rates (MCR) and effects of norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine (E) on levels of glucose, nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA) and immunoreactive insulin (IRI) in 12 steers. During fasting...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Faux
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Effects of fasting on blood plasma levels, metabolism and metabolic effects of epinephrine and norepinephrine in steers - PubMed
Experiments were designed to study effects of 3 days of fasting on blood plasma levels, metabolic clearance rates (MCR) and effects of norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine (E) on levels of glucose, nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA) and immunoreactive insulin (IRI) in 12 steers. During fasting...
The abstract of that article seems to support what Dr. Fung is saying. Full article is locked behind a subscription though. I'm going to go to bed now, but maybe I'll try to find the full article from elsewhere in the morning.
Izo
Tranny Chaser
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Combine it with truck driver lung and prostate cancer eating all the energy it’s a whole new weightloss world.
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Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
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Izo
Tranny Chaser
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What
Faux
is getting at is pretty much what we’re taught in med school from physiology and biochemistry, sans the IF. We have different antidiabetic drugs now that changes the picture a bit, treatment wise for niddm. Interesting posts - wl is not a forte of mine.
So, is the consensus here from the FoH expert panel IF for fatties with wl in mind? Ossoi the greak god is not my usual ptt, heh.
Faux
is getting at is pretty much what we’re taught in med school from physiology and biochemistry, sans the IF. We have different antidiabetic drugs now that changes the picture a bit, treatment wise for niddm. Interesting posts - wl is not a forte of mine.So, is the consensus here from the FoH expert panel IF for fatties with wl in mind? Ossoi the greak god is not my usual ptt, heh.
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Bravo sir, couldn’t agree with you more.
Your background in truck driving concurs with that post?
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Precisely. If you're fat and obsessed with food, and starve yourself for 3 days then eat one meal, you will absolutely lose weight. Our bodies evolved this way because food sources were not always guaranteed when we were hunting food in the tall grasses of Africa. If you're naturally ripped and can workout and become Rocky in Rocky 4, then you'll always slay pussy.
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Burnem Wizfyre
Log Wizard
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My personal research combined with verifiable results following that informations advice leads me to believe it’s likely to be accurate.
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