Weight Loss Thread

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
This conversation started when you tagged me and asked me my thoughts on a statement made by Dr Fung

Incorrect - you jumped in to a debate between me and

Burnem Wizfyre and just took over his role, and dragged this out another 24-48 hours. See below for your first post on the topic

Faux said:
This is probably a really bad idea, but I thought I would weigh in here.

I read the last few pages and thought I would chime in on a few topics.

First off, I saw a lot of hangups on the discussion about calorie restriction and metabolism...... Take someone like Ossoi who is in very good shape.

Now take someone that is more average that is not starting from the same point as Ossoi.

Both Ossoi and that person have the same hormone response, but Ossoi uses the glucose faster and his insulin drops faster. No metabolic slow down for him.

What I was debating with him and then you was THESE statements (legit how many times do I have to paste these?)

Faux said:
And you said, if a statement is not useful for me, it is not true for me. (pardon me if I am miscontruing your statement), and I am therefore contradicting myself.

Yes, you are misconstruing it. And I'm starting to think your repeated neglecting of a) your own statements and b) misconstruing of my own statements is a deliberate attempt to avoid actually addressing the statements, and thus conceding defeat.

Why is it so hard for you answer the question above as it is written, without attempting to re-phrase it or spin it into a position where you think you are not conceding.

THIS IS LEGITIMATELY THE ONLY REASON WHY THIS DISCUSSION HAS DRAGGED ON FOR SO LONG.

Literally all I've done for the last 48 hours is remind you of what you stated was true, and asked you to agree/concede that the exceptions to your statement/assertion prove that the statement is not accurate.

All you've done is forget what your actual statements are, ignore the reminders, claim you were addressing something else, not answer the questions directly and just repeat the same old stuff about insulin etc (that I'm not reading)

If anyone else is sick of reading this then implore

Faux to answer the above question

He can write a lengthy reply without answering it, or attempt to answer another question or misrepresentation of the question put to him - from now on, all he gets is a pasted reminder of the actual question

Faux · Mar 8, 2021

Ossoi said:
Incorrect - you jumped in to a debate between me and Burnem Wizfyre and just took over his role, and dragged this out another 24-48 hours. See below for your first post on the topic

What I was debating with him and then you was THESE statements (legit how many times do I have to paste these?)

View attachment 340681

Yes, you are misconstruing it. And I'm starting to think your repeated neglecting of a) your own statements and b) misconstruing of my own statements is a deliberate attempt to avoid actually addressing the statements, and thus conceding defeat.

View attachment 340683

Why is it so hard for you answer the question above as it is written, without attempting to re-phrase it or spin it into a position where you think you are not conceding.

THIS IS LEGITIMATELY THE ONLY REASON WHY THIS DISCUSSION HAS DRAGGED ON FOR SO LONG.

Literally all I've done for the last 48 hours is remind you of what you stated was true, and asked you to agree/concede that the exceptions to your statement/assertion prove that the statement is not accurate.

All you've done is forget what your actual statements are, ignore the reminders, claim you were addressing something else, not answer the questions directly and just repeat the same old stuff about insulin etc (that I'm not reading)

If anyone else is sick of reading this then implore Faux to answer the above question

He can write a lengthy reply without answering it, or attempt to answer another question or misrepresentation of the question put to him - from now on, all he gets is a pasted reminder of the actual question

So your first quote of me refers to my understanding of calorie restricted diets and how they affect metabolism. I was saying that my understanding was that restricted calorie diets would only negatively affect your metabolism if your body had no access to fat stores to make up the energy debt. For a healthy person like you, who has plenty of access to fat burning, calorie restriction would just result in fat loss and not metabolic slowdown because you have no insulin problem and can easily access fat stores for energy. Someone with insulin resistance who has much less access to fat stores might experience a metabolic slowdown if they can't mobilize the energy they need from fat cells? It seems to be dependent on the person, insulin profile, and general metabolic health. What is your issue with this statement? I could be wrong on this, its just my understanding of why calorie restriction could result in metabolic slowdown.

The MS paint picture of my quotes is just me stating our current understanding of insulin function. Insulin goes up, hormone sensitive lipase and free fatty acid levels drop to below resting level (indicating a strong inhibition of lipolysis), and don't come back up until a period of time after insulin normalizes. During that window of elevated Insulin, lipolysis seems effectively shut down i.e. no fat burning. As an active, healthy individual, your window of elevated insulin is short, so eating more carbs really doesn't affect you in a significant way. I never even approached an implication that you can't burn fat eating a higher carb diet. I said it doesn't matter much for healthy people because they still spend the vast majority of their day at a normal insulin level. Why are you contending these statements are wrong?

If you want a direct answer, I would say False. Its too simplistic as written.

Do X and Y happens (no degree of Y happening is attached. Its a general qualitative statement). Action X has some incurred cost.
Person A does X and Y happens to a signficant degree
Person B does X and Y happens to an extremely tiny degree.

The statement "Do X and Y" happens was accurate for both of them, but not useful for Person B especially if the cost was greater than the benefit of Y.

If someone else feels I'm being an idiot, chime in and I will concede this point. I will stop posting here and go back to try and find the interpretation I am missing in your responses.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
Do X and Y happens (no degree of Y happening is attached. Its a general qualitative statement). Action X has some incurred cost.
Person A does X and Y happens to a signficant degree
Person B does X and Y happens to an extremely tiny degree.

The statement "Do X and Y" happens was accurate for both of them, but not useful for Person B especially if the cost was greater than the benefit of Y.

Absolutely fucking lol, you are a joke, or intentionally trolling my this point

True or False?

Faux · Mar 8, 2021

Ossoi said:
View attachment 340704
Absolutely fucking lol, you are a joke, or intentionally trolling my this point

View attachment 340705

True or False?

False. I'll stop trolling you now. Have a great day.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
So your first quote of me refers to my understanding of calorie restricted diets and how they affect metabolism. I was saying that my understanding was that restricted calorie diets .

You are now intentionally misconstruing your own statements.

The same statements which I've posted multiple times, including in the post you're replying to

Four quotes referring to spiking insulin, zero mention of calories or calorie restriction

You are a joke and you should consider yourself fortunate that you got so much attention

Spare us both the bother and cut the lengthy re hash of your science, I don't respect you as an authority, I don't respect your opinion and I don't read it

The purpose of this post is to expose your own mediocrity because you can't answer any of my posts without twisting either what I said or your own comments

Lol

Faux · Mar 8, 2021

Ossoi said:
You are now intentionally misconstruing your own statements.

The same statements which I've posted multiple times, including in the post you're replying to

View attachment 340706

Four quotes referring to spiking insulin, zero mention of calories or calorie restriction

You are a joke and you should consider yourself fortunate that you got so much attention

Spare us both the bother and cut the lengthy re hash of your science, I don't respect you as an authority, I don't respect your opinion and I don't read it

The purpose of this post is to expose your own mediocrity because you can't answer any of my posts without twisting either what I said or your own comments

Lol

You literally quoted a section from my original post that was talking about calorie restriction and metabolism, so I responded to it with the first paragraph.

Then I referenced the MS paint quotes with this (nary a mention of any calorie restriction):

The MS paint picture of my quotes is just me stating our current understanding of insulin function. Insulin goes up, hormone sensitive lipase and free fatty acid levels drop to below resting level (indicating a strong inhibition of lipolysis), and don't come back up until a period of time after insulin normalizes. During that window of elevated Insulin, lipolysis seems effectively shut down i.e. no fat burning. As an active, healthy individual, your window of elevated insulin is short, so eating more carbs really doesn't affect you in a significant way. I never even approached an implication that you can't burn fat eating a higher carb diet. I said it doesn't matter much for healthy people because they still spend the vast majority of their day at a normal insulin level. Why are you contending these statements are wrong?

Its not my science, I didn't do the research. If you are saying those statements are false and you have evidence they don't apply to you, POST YOUR WORK. Find a study that says you can burn mobilize and burn fat DURING an insulin spike. I even posted a peer reviewed study that detailed the mechanism by which this happens.

Find ANYONE AT ALL to agree with you that fat mobilization occurs during an insulin spike, and not after the insulin has faded and I will retract all of those statements.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
Find ANYONE AT ALL to agree with you that fat mobilization occurs during an insulin spike, and not after the insulin has faded and I will retract all of those statements.

I'm not updating this to include all your quotes, as already mentioned you're just rephrasing what Burnem already did, so the circle of retard logic is now complete.

Just so everyone knows, it is now

Faux trying to keep this debate alive

He's already conceded that I'm the exception to the rule and wants to keep debating the rule.

Find a study that says you can burn mobilize and burn fat DURING an insulin spike

Do you concede/agree that I lost body fat and gained/preserved muscle despite spiking my insulin with 200-400g carbs in 5/6 meals a day and eating the occasional full Dominoes order?

Do you think I care whether I was burning fat or not burning at 415am or 415pm or 720pm or 10pm or any other moment of a single day, as long as I achieved my goals of a) weekly weight loss b) improved body composition and c) target weight goal?

As I've SAID ALREADY

You trying to preserve the accuracy of your statement by claiming that at certain times of the day I wasn't actually burning fat, is the equivalent of cheering that despite losing a basketball match, you were leading for 2 minutes in the second quarter, 5 minutes in the third and 1 minute in the fourth.

I ate carbs.
I spiked my insulin.
I lost weight.
I lost body fat
I gained/preserved muscle.

Besides, your understanding of the insulin model is flawed, you seem oblivious to the fact that protein also has an insulinogenic effect

Lanx · Mar 8, 2021

Burnem Wizfyre said:
It’s good cold or hot, I prefer cold and don’t have any experience doing it hot sorry. I just get a spoon and stir the shit out of it. That’s the brand I use for my Apple cider and when I break a fast and eat with a meal and do so with a little stevia because who cares my insulin is going to spike from the meal anyways.

When I do green tea during lunch I like Pique tea packets and I just put them in a water bottle and shake the fuck out of it.

Pique Tea Organic Mint Sencha Green Tea Crystals - Immune Support, Gut Health, Fasting - 14 Single Serve Sticks (Pack of 1) Amazon product ASIN B01D8SKGKE

maybe you could try putting the matcha in the coffee instead, thats what i just did i was making a cup of tea and realized i had my nitro keg out and pour some cold brew into it. tastes really nice actually.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Just saw this on Instagram. Found it amusing as

Burnem Wizfyre was claiming him going from 300 lbs to 180lbs and the rate he did that, was somehow comparable or superior to me going from 180 to 160, and from 13-15% body fat to sub 10%

Yeah no shit you lost more weight at a faster rate, you had more to lose

I realize this is obvious to most of you, but clearly not to everyone

Faux · Mar 8, 2021

I concede Ossoi. This is pointless and we are talking past each other.

Congratulations on your results. They are impressive and you should be proud of them.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
I concede Ossoi. This is pointless and we are talking past each other.

Congratulations on your results. They are impressive and you should be proud of them.

Great, now that's out the way I can finally address the shit that you and

Burnem Wizfyre have been spewing about insulin.

Screenshot - 2021-03-08T155138.314 (1).png

What spikes insulin:

Carbs
Protein

Where do you get carbs and protein from:

Food
Drinks

What else do I get from food and drink:

Calories/Energy

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So you're telling me that when I eat carbs, I spike my insulin and that shuts down ALL fat burning until my insulin levels subside?

Yes

And why are you so focused on carbs = insulin = no fat burning, and not protein, which also raises insulin levels, or factors like calorie intake/energy?

Umm

Because it's surely obvious that when I am eating food, regardless of whether it's carbs, protein, fat that my body is going to burn that food for energy and not access my fat stores?

Yes

Do you think that is some kind of revelation or something?

Well yes, look here are the studies

Dude, I don't need to you to tell me that if I have £100 in my wallet and a £50 restaurant bill, that I don't need to go to the ATM, I can just use the money in my wallet because it's quicker and more easily accessible

Besides, what can you tell me about other hormones, that are active at the same time as insulin that stimulate lipolysis and inhibit lipogenesis?

What?

Yeah thought so, specifically: glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol etc

_________________________________________________________________________________________

See, here's the issue (apart from your previously addressed "trying to win on a technicality because you were 5 points up in the second quarter of a basketball game")

Your understanding of insulin is FLAWED.

Both you and

Burnem Wizfyre made definitive statements re insulin and fat loss:

YOU CANNOT BURN FAT

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE BURNING ANY FAT AT ALL

The body doesn't work like that, it's not an on-off button. It's a dimmer switch.

It's not a case of whether insulin stops you from burning fat, it's if it stops you from losing fat.

And that was always my point - my results were clear and decisive proof that a high carb diet and insulin spikes are counter evidence to your DEFINITIVE CANNOT BURN FAT statements.

And that a low carb/low insulin diet is not necessary to lose weight, and therefore your DEFINITIVE CANNOT BURN FAT statements were flawed / incorrect.

But those statements don't apply to you or people like you - and I started off by asking you to put an * next to them before this turned into an autistic battle to get you to concede. All each of you had to do was say "ok, this statement doesn't work for everyone" and we could have saved everyone the trauma of having to tolerate this nonsense

Now admittedly, your DEFINITIVE statement was less extreme than

Burnem Wizfyre and you phrased it better than by including the conditional "WHEN YOUR INSULIN LEVELS ARE HIGH" but you still failed by claiming "I DONT BELIEVE YOU ARE BURNING ANY FAT AT ALL"

REALITY:

A) A year long trial of 600+ overweight participants found that low carb and low fat diets produced similar results. Insulin production had no impact on predicting weight loss

Low-Fat vs Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Weight Loss in Overweight Adults

This randomized clinical trial compares the effects of a healthy low-fat vs a healthy low-carbohydrate diet on 12-month weight change among adults aged 18 to 50 years with a body mass index of 28 to 40 without diabetes, and investigates modification of the diet effect by genotype pattern or...

jamanetwork.com

B) I've never said a high carb diet is suitable for everyone. I've stated multiple times in the years I've been active in this thread that overweight/inactive people should start low carb and gradually increase their carb intake as their weight improves.

C) Fanatical zealousy about a diet is a sure signal that you need to slap yourself around the face. There are no magic pills, no secret methods, no hacks. If you believe that you or your guru (who also happens to be selling books and coaching services) have hacked the weight loss, then you're a fucking fool.

Carbs are not the devil, insulin is not the devil (I mean you literally ignored me saying that the reason I consume all my carbs during and post workout was to spike insulin to get glycogen to my muscles faster), fasting is not magic, keto is not magic.

My top rule for weight loss:

1. Can you adhere to your diet?

Yes = great, carry on
No = adjust, try something else

Denamian

Lanx and any other mod that might be watching this, this discussion is over as far as I am concerned.

Faux and

Burnem Wizfyre have been knocked out, GG it's over, no rematch.

I've got the concession I was looking for. I've now responded to their flawed understanding of insulins effect on the body.

It's over.

Burnem Wizfyre · Mar 8, 2021

Lanx said:
maybe you could try putting the matcha in the coffee instead, thats what i just did i was making a cup of tea and realized i had my nitro keg out and pour some cold brew into it. tastes really nice actually.

I’ve been recently adding my Apple cider vinegar, lime, cream of tartar and some stevia to it when I eat and it’s quite tasty, so much so I actually enjoy it. I’m not a hot tea person, I’ve tried probably the Texan in me and wanting cold tea.

Burnem Wizfyre · Mar 8, 2021

Faux said:
I concede Ossoi. This is pointless and we are talking past each other.

Congratulations on your results. They are impressive and you should be proud of them.

Put him on ignore and go on about your life, he’s a narcissistic chromosome smuggler that is a shining example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Araysar · Mar 8, 2021

Burnem Wizfyre is correct here,.

Ossoi is just looking for excuses to keep posting pics of his small package over and over.

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

Araysar said:
Burnem Wizfyre is correct here,.

Ossoi is just looking for excuses to keep posting pics of his small package over and over.

And yet both were wrong because neither knows how insulin works.

If

Burnem Wizfyre would take me off ignore he might learn something, easier to hurl insults from behind ignore, I guess

And one photo of actual results is worth ten studies that a) most people posting haven't read b) don't understand c) nobody else will read

Izo · Mar 8, 2021

Araysar said:
Burnem Wizfyre is correct here,.

Ossoi is just looking for excuses to keep posting pics of his small package over and over.

BW is losing weight bc of truck driver’s cancer. Post pics of your russian chernobyl mutant body.

LiquidDeath · Mar 8, 2021

Araysar said:
Burnem Wizfyre is correct here,.

Ossoi is just looking for excuses to keep posting pics of his small package over and over.

He has two fetishes he is indulging here, a fetish for posting the same 8 pictures of himself over and over and a fetish for taking a single statement from a much larger block of text and attempting to force all discussion through that one statement.

Izo · Mar 8, 2021

Ossoi what’s your take on zero carb softdrinks, coke zero, pepsi max etc with regards to fasting/intermittent fasting?

Lanx · Mar 8, 2021

Izo said:
Ossoi what’s your take on zero carb softdrinks, coke zero, pepsi max etc with regards to fasting/intermittent fasting?

even tho it's zero calories i still don't know why it breaks it, no one gives a real reason just that

aspartme bad, okay

Ossoi · Mar 8, 2021

LiquidDeath said:
He has two fetishes he is indulging here, a fetish for posting the same 8 pictures of himself over and over and a fetish for taking a single statement from a much larger block of text and attempting to force all discussion through that one statement.

View attachment 340772

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