Just read the ops post , so answering that question. I love huge worlds , with lots of exploration/towns/cities. Vanguard was a great example of that , along with EQ and UO. Vanguard in regards to the multitude of cool and unique classes and its large open world/dungeons. EQ for its great ways of pupulating dungeons and bosses. UO for its sandbox , mainly homes and the bard class/tamer. So for me i would love to see a fresh new mmo world , fantasy of course.Because playing a game without halfings is an abomination to fantasy. Able to plunk down my home and build it from scratch , and put shit in there from my travels , kinda like how eq2 had it and UO. Combat can be your generic target and push abilty buttons. I want my character to reflect what i have conquered , from gear to trophies of sorts dangling off my belt , let me choose to wear fur clad armor , or heavy plate armor and look like a bad ass with 2 axes hanging off my back. Basically , take what is awesome from all the games that have come and incorparate that into one awesome MMO. Dreams can happen =(.
Well, now what?
- Thread starter kitsune
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Getting back to this, I have to say that while I agree users 'building' content Dungeon Master style with any sort of elevated privileges is indeed not a great setup, user content as in your users having their own dynamic piece of the pie(i.e. keep, dungeon, castle, lair, etc) that they can populate, defend, and transform is the next step in making things dynamic.
This needs to be built into the game, in a sort of 'player housing' setup. You build incentives in to raid someones castle or dungeon, and likewise have those also for the defender to purchase defenses, setup traps, and make things interesting. You can add a bounty hunting system, witness protection defense system, treasure keeper bonus, and other forms of quests for defender and attacker, The content is indeed player generated and paid for which makes currency valuable. You can make the level/design based on the current level of both players which keeps the average for the content more in line with the average for the population. Your low level characters can buy a few orcs or human archers. Your max level guy perhaps can pay for a Balrog, Lich, or Dragon to defend their gold stash and treasure. Have a character's domain be where they store their stuff instead of a central bank a la UO housing.
This system would be modular which makes it better for MMOs. You have a ton of dynamic content that changes daily and while missions and quests are auto generated, the actual content is purchased and setup in game by players. Since they are just setting up their own 'fiefdoms' or invading someone else's then there is not a ton of QA overhead.
The trick is making a good design to add incentives to both defend and attack peoples areas, which I really don't think is that tough. This adds value to gold, allows for better community since you'll need coordination and teamwork to beat many setups. Also, since things can be changed ad hoc, it allows for a feeling of freshness since the content will be new and there potentially could be surprises at any place you've hit before.
Tolan
Member of the Year 2016
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Google says the latest for EVE is 361k, subs anyway. I guess this ever growing number is what's making SOE horny for more sandbox. I never got past two or three days of playing EVE because I didn't have the patience to deal with the learning curve, there was no scenery or fellow players to entice me to continue playing, and I quickly learned that my ambitions of becoming a space cadet were not as strong as being a sword swinging, magic casting, half-elf.
Back to topic: WoW had explosive success for a few reasons but not for its richness in role playing and social interaction, which is what I consider to be EQ's hook. From day one in EQ (Kunark) I was seeing zone-wide auctions in Gfay (although EC tunnel was Eci's trading hot spot), wondering why orc belts were so great, figuring out the other commodities for trade, getting random tells from countless other noobs with questions and asking for help, and learning from actual player characters what drops were used for, what quests were worth starting, where they started, "in what direction is Crushbone?", etc. And all of those cool interactions got better and more frequent as the levels dinged on. When I played original WoW, there was none of that. I dabbled with a troll hunter, which I was pretty invested in for about 40 levels, but I got so F'ing bored of feeling like the only thing going on was the fog or war expanding and obtaining more kill quests. WoW was a beautiful, polished world but it was a soulless one... and this is coming from a loner, mostly soloing, EQ ranger. In EQ, one of my reasons for soloing often was totryto take a break from the involvement, commitment, and occasional drama of the community. It was an alternative, albeit inefficient as much as it was satisfying, way to play the game. In WoW, it was the most efficient method of advancement. After 40 levels, WoW burned me out on soloing and, therefore, the game itself. Could I have tried to form groups? Sure. Did I try it a few times? Yes. Was it a fruitful experience? No. Is the maturity of the internet to blame for that? I don't think so. I think the amount of information presented in WoW itself is mostly to blame. The game was designed to be not only too easy but too hand-holding.
EQ, as I suspect EVE is for some, was an escape for me. I never multi-boxed. Never had to. Sometimes I was LFG for just a little too long and I'd throw in the towel not always by quitting but often by finding something to solo, or someone to help, or whatever. There was usually something else going on with the 100's of other players I met along the way. It felt like an alternative world with an alternative version of me. Maybe that sounds lame or whatever, but I think that's what an MMO should be. Of course, good game play mechanics, goals, ever more tasty dangling carrots, and a sense of accomplishment are all important. But a great MMORPG (like a great book or album) needs a soul, man! One that glues the rest of the artistry together.
I think that soul fully ascended after PoP and I don't think WoW+ is the format to bring it back. If developers think this kind of game is not worth making, financially speaking, I'm not sure we'll ever see it again. Maybe the audience looking for a multi-faceted RPG escape is just too niche these days? I don't think so but maybe some of you aren't even in that audience. Maybe it's solely the competitiveness or something else that drives you. Maybe that division is the reason for calling eachother "dipshits" and "retards" here.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Just pointing out, that at no point was soloing in WoW better than grouping up and doing instances. An hour in WC was worth 2-3x as much xp as moving at top speed between quest triggers/goals by far. Unless you were being actively PL'd, it was always better to group up. Group up doing quests? Maybe not so much, but instance/elite killing was worth a shitload of xp as well as drops from bosses/rares/whatever being better than the shitty greens you got from most quests. WoW effectively had zone quests where you would do the quest to get the blue (in TBC, think Hellfire and the trinket with +crit) and you honestly could say fuck off to the rest of the zone. Better drops were available from instance quests and what have you by far. The only efficiency that WoW provided soloers was the ability to do so at all. Questing was -way- less Xp per hour than grinding in all cases, and substantially less than running a dungeon. No matter your class.
This is a badly portrayed myth that really needs to be accepted as a myth.
This is a badly portrayed myth that really needs to be accepted as a myth.
Tolan
Member of the Year 2016
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Rezz,
Point taken. Now that you mention it, I do remember getting instanced quests. I grouped up for one or two of those but found it to be pretty boring. It felt like hack and slash from start to finish with no real need for coordinating a strategy. Sometimes I'd try to solo through them or gain a couple levels, if necessary, and then go back to solo them.
I actually liked the amount of quests in WoW and the way they created a tour of the game world, but doing them was a pretty lonely experience. Thinking back on it, there were many occasions when the most interaction I had with another player is when I was clearing through a mob camp for a quest kill and some rogue or whatever class would just run right past me and steal the named mob, kill, loot, and immediately run off without saying a word. Seemed to be normal practice in WoW. I didn't care to get into a fight about it because I'm a patient guy and I knew, in another 5 minutes, the mob would spawn again. If that kind of thing happened in EQ, I'd be calling that guy out and telling stories about it.
Point taken. Now that you mention it, I do remember getting instanced quests. I grouped up for one or two of those but found it to be pretty boring. It felt like hack and slash from start to finish with no real need for coordinating a strategy. Sometimes I'd try to solo through them or gain a couple levels, if necessary, and then go back to solo them.
I actually liked the amount of quests in WoW and the way they created a tour of the game world, but doing them was a pretty lonely experience. Thinking back on it, there were many occasions when the most interaction I had with another player is when I was clearing through a mob camp for a quest kill and some rogue or whatever class would just run right past me and steal the named mob, kill, loot, and immediately run off without saying a word. Seemed to be normal practice in WoW. I didn't care to get into a fight about it because I'm a patient guy and I knew, in another 5 minutes, the mob would spawn again. If that kind of thing happened in EQ, I'd be calling that guy out and telling stories about it.
Wrong.
The first people to race to 60 when servers went live weren't doing so as a group.
Grouping was relatively beneficial in early levels; except you had to construct the group, travel to the entrance to the place, clear to all the trash to the instance and THEN do the instance. There was a shitload more trash back in vanilla, too. And hopefully you didn't wipe. Dying, in group or solo, sets back the rate of exp gain tremendously.
Dealing with people trying to instance, early on, was painstaking. I was a holy priest. Good fucking god was it fucking pain. Dudes having no idea how to tank, hunters with aggressive set on pet, that paladin having righteous fury on, the tank only using a 2hander. I specifically remember asking a mage, "Hey, can I get int buff?" and he replied with, "i can't invite that guy he's not online."
Not using CC was dangerous. People lacking knowledge on how to use it was all too common. Sapping the wrong targets or (my favorite) attacking every sheep that ever appeared. This is on top of the fact that there were no loot restrictions and people would need all kinds of shit. I guess you don't remember the old joke of, "This item is clearly a hunter item."
Nope. No. Fuck no.
Questing wasn't and isn't a myth. Questing is still more beneficial today, even with LFG exp bonuses.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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No, I was on a server with Coolbreeze/Kurgen and other players. The first people to 60 were not questing. They were grinding mobs. Had other people been able to maintain online playtimes with which to group with, they would have been. The "race" to 60 involved grinding in a group when it was available and solo grinding when it was not. The first people to hit cap did so because they played more than 10 hours a day, not because they weren't grouping. Grouping is and was superior XP doing instances/elite mobs. That is just plain fact.
Also, I was one of the first troll warrior on all servers to hit max level, I'm pretty sure. Not saying you are completely wrong, but on Medivh, the first people to max level did so through grouping and then grinding. Questing was an afterthought at best.
BilboFaggins
N00b
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Personally, I'd like to see some true growth in the industry. We always talk about this game mechanic or that game element, but how much longer are we going to have to wait before we finally see true industry defining change come to the mmo sector?
I'd like to see someone design a mmo around the idea of true immersion utilizing the Oculus Rift VR headset and Razor Hydra system. I want to FEEL like I am IN the world rather then just spamming attacks while munching on Cheetos and watching tv.
I'd like to see someone design a mmo around the idea of true immersion utilizing the Oculus Rift VR headset and Razor Hydra system. I want to FEEL like I am IN the world rather then just spamming attacks while munching on Cheetos and watching tv.
kitsune
Golden Knight of the Realm
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Sorry man, you're wrong. Whereas in the beta Dalamar & Nisstyr hit 60 first due to chain-pulling elite mobs with bloodthirst bug, the actual players that got level 60 first in the world did so by soloing and doing quests. Vanilla soloing quests / grinding as a hunter was superior to istancing by far. There's a lot more traveltime & organisation needed to handle dungeons properly as well. That's not to say that instancing wasn't more enjoyable, I much preferred spamming cathedral runs from 33-42 or so, but the guys out being able to solo everything leveled faster for sure.
The instance content wasn't as well-defined as it is nowadays either. It probably was faster to do stair runs in Zul'Farrak if you had a good aoe group (2 mages or so), but overall I can't say it was impressive and look at dungeons like maraudon (I don't think it was there for US release, but it was in when us europeons got the game) - the quests were more of a clusterfuck than a great source of exp
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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The concept of the top-right minimap fits with the concept of WoW-type games.
People have various orientation sense; some immediately recognize where they are, and where they need to be, while others need more time. But in a quest-driven levelling game, you never spend more than 10mn in any given area for your quest, so for a lot of players, you will not have time to learn to recognize your surroundings and orient yourself. Thus, the minimap and the global map with a glowing spot (or X, or whatever).
^ That's probably true but you could say the same about anything, including EQ. It just takes a designer with vision and balls to stick to their guns, and the expertise in game design to know that giving the player what they need is not always the best option.
Theoretically this is true, but it ignores quest rewards, being directed to new and better areas as one levels, convenience, and most importantly not being at the whim of groupmates unless you are doing the Sam Deathwalker routine.
Also, I don't quite get the hate for a top right GPS style mini map. It's one of the best things about modern MMOs, although that might just be me.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think it depends on what you're aiming for in your game.. If you're aiming to the causal market it's a must. Personally I would not mind a huge open world without it. Tools for players to notate the map as they see fit is good enough for me.
Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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Being able to navigate a world without a GPS is part of the "skill" involved in being a good MMO player. Removing that aspect just dumbs stuff down. Like people have said, both have their merits, it depends on your target audience and game design goals.
Tolan
Member of the Year 2016
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On top of being hand-holding, as Sean suggested, the GPS is one of those "modern MMO" features that detract from immersion. GPS is very convenient but in reality it's a modern tech perfectly suited for games like Modern Warfare. In a fantasy setting it removes the player further from a 1:1 presentation of their character's experience in the game world. It's similar to the dock bells in EQ2, or that closed door on the side of a mountain that you click and magically appear on the other side. It may speed up your progress or make you omnicient, but it's cheap as an RPG feature.
I think EQ's original presentation, the sense heading skill (or a compass) and a real-time periodic heading for tracking PCs/NPCs, was enough. Learning my way around Norrath was a challenge gradually conquered and guiding people through a zone was always fun. Give everyone a GPS and those experiences are lost.
I think EQ's original presentation, the sense heading skill (or a compass) and a real-time periodic heading for tracking PCs/NPCs, was enough. Learning my way around Norrath was a challenge gradually conquered and guiding people through a zone was always fun. Give everyone a GPS and those experiences are lost.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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A game that has a mini map with objective markers and highlighted routes is essentially telling the player, "Hey look, I know you don't give a shit about finding your own way, so here you go."
Now this can be good or bad depending on the game. If there is absolutely nothing to find or discover off the beaten path. Then sure, issue a gps unit to every new character. Hell do one better and let people just click on the map to instantly teleport to anywhere they want to go. Because if the game world is so completely devoid of rewarding exploration, then there is no point for people to walk around in it; just warp em to the next hub and be done with it.
If on the other hand, the world is really interesting to explore, has all kinds of hidden locations, has random roaming creatures, has wildlife and an e-ecosystem and lots of detail just begging to be noticed... then tear that mini map off the screen and force your players to enjoy the journey. Forced joy may sound like an oxymoron, but if the designers did their job right and created a world worth exploring, the players will be thankful for not being allowed to miss it.
Now this can be good or bad depending on the game. If there is absolutely nothing to find or discover off the beaten path. Then sure, issue a gps unit to every new character. Hell do one better and let people just click on the map to instantly teleport to anywhere they want to go. Because if the game world is so completely devoid of rewarding exploration, then there is no point for people to walk around in it; just warp em to the next hub and be done with it.
If on the other hand, the world is really interesting to explore, has all kinds of hidden locations, has random roaming creatures, has wildlife and an e-ecosystem and lots of detail just begging to be noticed... then tear that mini map off the screen and force your players to enjoy the journey. Forced joy may sound like an oxymoron, but if the designers did their job right and created a world worth exploring, the players will be thankful for not being allowed to miss it.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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hrm.
Gw2 has a shit ton of hidden unmarked stuff.
Yet people are complaining that the map doesn't put MORE giant orange GO HERE signs up for DE's across the map.