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xzi

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
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It wasn't at the beginning of the game, but I do remember frost mages farming maruadon cause those little flowers gave full xp for whatever reason, haha. Could get like 36-50 doing that in a day. It was beautiful.

Grind or not, who's to say there even needs to be a leveling system anymore? I wouldn't mind some sort of change
 
BilboFaggins

BilboFaggins

N00b
302
22
I've tried hard to figure out what it is that I like in mmorpgs, and for the most part I can't put my finger on what the fuck it is anymore.
I like the grind and at the same time I hate the grind. I think what I really am after is accomplishing something on game. I want options though, and I want them to matter.

The biggest complaint I had with WoW was the fact that no matter what you did between level 1 and max level, in the end everybody of your class was the same. None of the choices you made had any lasting effect on your character. That's grind without any purpose other than to waste your time.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Goonsquad Officer
<Bronze Donator>
8,733
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I forgot you could raid 5 mans in Vanilla. Does anyone know why they took that out?
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
The infusion of this much money has poisoned the genre, bottom line. UO, EQ were innocent and blind in terms of this. They didn't know what would make the most money, what had the biggest revenue streams, what 'features' can you exploit enough to garner the most subs. These questions are formulated and answered by marketing teams, and these teamsdrive developmentwhen this much money can be made.

In the early days, these questions weren't even asked. and in precise language, THAT is why they were so much better. What the common person wants is not good design, in the same way what the common person listens to on the radio is not good music. You bust the genre wide open in terms of profits like WoW did, every single studio will always and forever be chasing that same retarded tail, except eve.

As such, WoW is the worst thing to happen to this industry because of this fact. There's no getting around the influence of money on development, and this money is not only the driver for that development, but it dictates how it will be developed. And what that means for people who actually like to play mmos more than 30 minutes a day? It means they'll objectively fucking suck until the end of time.

Or until someone kicks the bean counters out, which will never happen.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
1,678
149
Exactly. In the good ole days, they wanted to make money but their only way to achieve that was making the best game they could imagine and something they would want to play themselves. That's why you can imagine UO and EQ being played by their own designers. But that all changed with WoW and now it's just a commercial thing where the goal is entirely to make money and whether it's a good game or not, doesn't even matter. The Happy Meal is good for money.

As for the grind thing above, I remember with early EQ, you would be the same level for a long time and that was actually really good. It was partly because levelling was just slow, and partly because I used to die constantly so was losing XP almost as often as I was making it. But the result is that pick a low level, lets say level 18, I was that level for days, maybe even a week of playing regularly. But unlike other games where you blast through a level in an hour, it meant that I explored lots of different content suitable for that level. I remember going to Unrest about then, mainly because I wanted some small bronze armor. I hunted there for ages and got some gear, made some XP, and had a LOT of fun in that memorable zone. But I also ended up hunting the Orcs in highpass at around the same level. And I did befallen, and Oasis, and some others - and this was all with the same character.

Even today when I play EQ Mac, with the +20% xp boost, and all my knowledge of the game, and the ridiculous ZoneExperienceModifiers, it means that I completed level 18 in a single sitting. It's hard to get as attached to a character and to appreciate all the great locations in the world when you are constantly blasting through it. I think they should make the levels take as long as old EQ, or even longer. Maybe at that point people will just forget about trying to rush, because it just wont be possible. Instead you just 'live in the now' and think about somewhere that you want to go now, and do it, and enjoy it. And there will be several places to choose from. It doesn't matter if you play for 6 hours and are still the same level after all of it, as long as you are having fun and have plenty of variety in hunting grounds. And you will have creeped closer to the next level which gives incentive for when you log in tomorrow.
 
Caliane

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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aaron_sl said:
I forgot you could raid 5 mans in Vanilla. Does anyone know why they took that out?
Click to expand...
too fun.

They wanted tighter control on what to expect in player stats. raid timers, etc. Wow got more and more fine tuned to very specific dps, hps, etc

WoW systematically removed a TON of player control in its instance design.
 
BilboFaggins

BilboFaggins

N00b
302
22
Ok so not being anybody in the mmo industry other then a player and thus having no knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Mmorpg, I ask this of the devs that visit these forums...
With game development systems like hero engine that allow you to make your own Mmorpg on their system using their servers for a monthly fee per developer connection, how realistic is it to believe that the average joe like myself can produce a low budget mmo?

I know it's pie in the sky thinking, but seriously, what would be the expectations of what is needed, who is needed, and time to market?

I am assuming I would need an artist, animator, systems developer, and game designer. Keep in mind, my goal would be to make something for me and my friends to play. Profit would have no factor at all, and in fact I would go in to the project expecting to lose 100% of the investment as payment for delivered enjoyment... Aka expensive hobby.

Lets say the team goal was to make a game the size of original EQ's Freeport, commonlands, and that undead dungeon off of commonlands (the name of which fails me now). Assume for this initial build, there would be one playable race (human), five playable classes (warrior, cleric, rogue, enchanter, monk), and roughly 15 monsters (skeleton, etc).

Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars? Keep in mind the hero engine cloud pricing is very cheap, so were not talking about any engine development licensing or development costs in this estimate. Last time I checked it seemed like the hero engine yearly cost per developer connection was something like a hundred dollars a year, so it's nothing compared to licensing unreal engine or anything like it.
 
kitsune

kitsune

Golden Knight of the Realm
624
35
Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
Ok so not being anybody in the mmo industry other then a player and thus having no knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Mmorpg, I ask this of the devs that visit these forums...
With game development systems like hero engine that allow you to make your own Mmorpg on their system using their servers for a monthly fee per developer connection, how realistic is it to believe that the average joe like myself can produce a low budget mmo?

I know it's pie in the sky thinking, but seriously, what would be the expectations of what is needed, who is needed, and time to market?

I am assuming I would need an artist, animator, systems developer, and game designer. Keep in mind, my goal would be to make something for me and my friends to play. Profit would have no factor at all, and in fact I would go in to the project expecting to lose 100% of the investment as payment for delivered enjoyment... Aka expensive hobby.

Lets say the team goal was to make a game the size of original EQ's Freeport, commonlands, and that undead dungeon off of commonlands (the name of which fails me now). Assume for this initial build, there would be one playable race (human), five playable classes (warrior, cleric, rogue, enchanter, monk), and roughly 15 monsters (skeleton, etc).

Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars? Keep in mind the hero engine cloud pricing is very cheap, so were not talking about any engine development licensing or development costs in this estimate. Last time I checked it seemed like the hero engine yearly cost per developer connection was something like a hundred dollars a year, so it's nothing compared to licensing unreal engine or anything like it.
Click to expand...
Whereas I think starting off with a 3d-engine like the hero engine is a bit too mighty for an understaffed and probably inexperienced group of people, I don't see why something in 2d couldn't be made such as a graal world or a basic mud. Remember, it all started in this regard and slowly moved to the million dollar productions we have now.

On that regard, it would probably be fun as fuck to design the rules of a game world. I'd shy away from min/maxing and such as fast as I could
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
Ok so not being anybody in the mmo industry other then a player and thus having no knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Mmorpg, I ask this of the devs that visit these forums...
With game development systems like hero engine that allow you to make your own Mmorpg on their system using their servers for a monthly fee per developer connection, how realistic is it to believe that the average joe like myself can produce a low budget mmo?

I know it's pie in the sky thinking, but seriously, what would be the expectations of what is needed, who is needed, and time to market?

I am assuming I would need an artist, animator, systems developer, and game designer. Keep in mind, my goal would be to make something for me and my friends to play. Profit would have no factor at all, and in fact I would go in to the project expecting to lose 100% of the investment as payment for delivered enjoyment... Aka expensive hobby.

Lets say the team goal was to make a game the size of original EQ's Freeport, commonlands, and that undead dungeon off of commonlands (the name of which fails me now). Assume for this initial build, there would be one playable race (human), five playable classes (warrior, cleric, rogue, enchanter, monk), and roughly 15 monsters (skeleton, etc).

Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars? Keep in mind the hero engine cloud pricing is very cheap, so were not talking about any engine development licensing or development costs in this estimate. Last time I checked it seemed like the hero engine yearly cost per developer connection was something like a hundred dollars a year, so it's nothing compared to licensing unreal engine or anything like it.
Click to expand...
Just because it's fun I'll answer.

First, let's assume you're not paying your team of developers the $50,000 to $150,000 a year for art assets, world development, QA, Project Management, IT, Network Engineering, Systems Engineering, UI development, not to mention class balance, class development, mob AI scripting etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's also assume you're not buying hardware, or computers for all these people that are working on the game (tons of money).

You still have to pay for bandwith, server hardware which I guess can be inexpensive if you're looking at only 10 or so people playing your game.
You still have to pay for all the backend server network code and stuff.
You still have to pay for a already developed game engine and set of development tools.

Wasn't there a failed kinda sci-fi ish old MMO that released their game assets to the public a few years ago?

Anyway, you could probably do it if you had a group of friends that were super tech friendly. But if you don't, you would probably need 5-10 million depending on the scope of the project.

Edit:
Kitsune probably has the right answer, and picking up some old as fuck game engine that is 2D would probably be the way you could go. You can do a cheap as hell flash or 2D sprite game for much less.

Or you can make a MUD like this:http://www.kaldana.com/
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Low budget is probably under a million. It depends on the scope, the talent, and the platform. I mean you could design a flash game with just a few people and you don't need all the infrastructure. Or if you and a few friends are amazing coders, you can make Minecraft for almost nothing but the cost of time.
 
Caliane

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,320
11,611
yeah, exactly.
Hence the question. Kindof need a ballpark of what low budget means to him.

Could make a web based game via flash, java, or old engines even, for well under 500k. Generally, you will see these types of games, coded by yourself though. so your own salary is kindof 0, when you would have been paying someone else a premium. Theres a reason all these indie games are generally self made.

Trying to produce the same game, but having to pay people to actually make it, you are probably moving towards the 2 million number.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
The more people who are playing the game the more expensive it is to create. Any time you start modifying engines you have to start thinking about driver compatibility, PC/MAC compatibility etc. That's why flash/java/android/iphone games are easier and cheaper to make compared to full fledged PC games. You're working within designed parameters and platforms.
 
K

Kid Sized Coffin_sl

shitlord
158
0
You can also buy art and sound. There's some free stuff out there too. The systems could be ripped from existing games without any forethought. You don'thaveto spend anything on marketing. You can make a really shitty game really easily actually. If it's just a private thing then you can just gank all the resources. In that case the biggest cost would be time. Even if you're only doing content creation it will take a lot of time.

You could also look at customizing aUO,WoW, orEQemulator.
 
BilboFaggins

BilboFaggins

N00b
302
22
I'm no millionaire. I know millionaires, but I am not one yet.

I'm just another gamer like all of you. That being said, I am a professional programmer in the financial industry, so I might be able to do some of the scripting in the game.

The reason I mentioned Hero Engine is because for 200 dollars a year, you get full access to their servers for you and 9 other developers (coders, artists, etc), and you pay absolutely nothing for the servers, engine, and band width. They make their money by taking 30% of the money from your games subscriptions.

I might go ahead and pay the 200 dollars for a year just for the hell of it. Hey if I did that, wouldn't that technically make me the ceo of a mmorpg. I could go to conferences and say stupid shit like the other mmorpg ceo's in the industry lol!
 
Nirgon

Nirgon

Log Wizard
13,769
21,660
supertouch_sl said:
i'd love to hear what people who actually played eq think about the game
Click to expand...
I was on the way in to work today and realized that our only hope lies with EQNext.

I read the EQClassic board to straighten myself out.

I think I'll make it. Maybe.

This board is more of a support group for people to learn to cope with playing modern games and why I page through it. We're praying for our bro, Kreugen, in his time of hardship.
 
F

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
Ok so not being anybody in the mmo industry other then a player and thus having no knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Mmorpg, I ask this of the devs that visit these forums...
With game development systems like hero engine that allow you to make your own Mmorpg on their system using their servers for a monthly fee per developer connection, how realistic is it to believe that the average joe like myself can produce a low budget mmo?

I know it's pie in the sky thinking, but seriously, what would be the expectations of what is needed, who is needed, and time to market?

I am assuming I would need an artist, animator, systems developer, and game designer. Keep in mind, my goal would be to make something for me and my friends to play. Profit would have no factor at all, and in fact I would go in to the project expecting to lose 100% of the investment as payment for delivered enjoyment... Aka expensive hobby.

Lets say the team goal was to make a game the size of original EQ's Freeport, commonlands, and that undead dungeon off of commonlands (the name of which fails me now). Assume for this initial build, there would be one playable race (human), five playable classes (warrior, cleric, rogue, enchanter, monk), and roughly 15 monsters (skeleton, etc).

Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars? Keep in mind the hero engine cloud pricing is very cheap, so were not talking about any engine development licensing or development costs in this estimate. Last time I checked it seemed like the hero engine yearly cost per developer connection was something like a hundred dollars a year, so it's nothing compared to licensing unreal engine or anything like it.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine has been talking about a startup game studio for a while now, so I have had some fun with discussing ideas etc. You are talking at least a million dollars. I don't want to go into much detail here, so I will just say:

To make EQ like graphics in a timely fashion you actually want more than one artist. You could get by with a single artist, but not with the Hero engine. If you go with a 2d game you can get by with a single artist (no animator). There are various ways to do 2d or 3d though and you need to work out which best suits your needs.

You need a programmer. Basically, someone experienced with C. If you want a lot of people to play your game then you need your programmer to also be very proficient with databases (or have another person do it).

Your designer needs to be proficient with C also (but not an expert).

It is going to take you a couple of years. Most of the cost will be for the above three people, licensing etc will be small in comparison to staffing costs.
 
Nirgon

Nirgon

Log Wizard
13,769
21,660
Here's how classic EQ is relevant today.

I'd go play a real classic PvP server over ANYTHING I see on the horizon in the next years. I'm not alone.

And yeah, same with me for Skyrim. It wasn't a WoW clone, it has an intense cult following and I enjoyed it more than WoW + Rift.

I even enjoyed doing things that didn't reward me with pixels because it was fun doing them. Damn, see how that works?
 
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