Westworld

Caliane, I think you basically hit the crux of the conversation. If the machines do feel pain in Westworld, either physically or emotionally, and by all indications they do, (regardless of sentience) then it's morally objectionable.

Here's something I've often thought about. What if patients felt pain under anesthesia during surgery, the anesthesia just prevented them from responding to the stimuli and remembering? Did they really feel pain? In the end, the person thinks the surgery was painless, even if they felt pain.

Just as if someone's child dies, but the trauma was wiped from his memory. Everything boils down to memory, because without it there's no persistent environment for (as the show explains) for consciousness. Consciousness cannot exist without memory, right?

There was an episode of DS9 where Mile's O'Brien was subjected to twenty years of simulated isolation in a prison cell (with a fictional friend, who he murders), even though it's all virtual reality and only 3 hours expire. He's a completely broken man after that... even though it was all fiction he still felt an immense amount of guilt over killing his cellmate who never existed. Before the crew could intervene and protest his innocence, the "sentence" had already been carried out and he was released, and never really recovered.

[Gonna take this time to recommend Deep Space 9 to everyone. The most underrated series of all time. Watch "The Visitor" as it's probably the most tear jerking 60 minutes of television ever to exist.]

There's no reason, if you are designing Westworld hosts, to take the immense amount of time it would take to make a hosts actually experience pain, when it's so much simpler to just program them to react as a human would to physical stimuli.

Don't forget that the machines have to show emotion as well, and that includes emotional pain.

Anyway, the writers covered their bases (and this potential plot hole) by the introduction of Arnold who did take that immense amount of time.

Woolygimp said:

Don't forget that the machines have to show emotion as well, and that includes emotional pain.

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They don't have to feel it to show it.

Raes said:

They don't have to feel it to show it.

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logically yes. The show seems to be jumping the gap with no explanation.

Its the basic turing text, etc. Is the robot just mimicing human behavior or feeling it?
Same with physical pain etc. First, you can't FEEL pain without nerves/sensors. But, then even feeling pain, is an emotionally response to feeling. Pain only hurts because our brains are hardwired to reacted negatively to physical stimuli that "cause pain". Mostly when we take damage.
A robot would not actually "feel pain" from taking damage, like you don't feel pain cutting your hair, if there is no damage receptors there. And then again second, if the receptors just process damage, vs creating a real attack on the robots systems as a result of it.
None of this is "programming". this would all have to be things that are hardwired in. Alot of Dolores seeming reaction to physical pain, or the Bordello headmistress, seems a bit odd.

Same kindof applies for the emotion as well. They pretty soundly present the robots as just mimicry. Acting. When doing rote responces, etc. But, we are supposed to believe the memories somehow create real awareness, and emotion. when glitching Again, "Emotion" would need to be hardwired. Memories do not create biology. Pychopaths have no problem remembering.

Exactly.

Caliane said:

logically yes. The show seems to be jumping the gap with no explanation.

Its the basic turing text, etc. Is the robot just mimicing human behavior or feeling it?

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Minor nitpick - that doesn't actually have anything to do with the turing test at all. It's literally that a person typing to a chatbot and a real person can't tell which is which with more than 50% accuracy.

It probably needs a better test these days, as it's not so much chatbots passing the turing test, as it is humans failing the turing test.

true, should have went with voight kampff.

Caliane said:

logically yes. The show seems to be jumping the gap with no explanation.

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Are we watching the same series? Did you miss episode 3 and the entire exposition about a character named Arnold who was absolutely obsessed with accomplishing true A.I. and making these machine sentient? Everything about human beings can be re-created. There's nothing unique about us; we are machines. It's a simple question of engineering.

There's a quote I like, did I read it in this thread or somewhere else?

"I'm not scared of a machine passing the Turing test, but I'm absolutely terrified of one that intentionally fails it."

Do we consider the milk guy's rampage and drinking milk with it coming out of a bullet wound him having his pain receptors/response programming disabled then?

It's clearly programmed in and completely disableable without affecting the functionality of the host.

I was thinking this morning some crazy shit in the shower, like what if William is the MiB, and let's still assume he is because I have a feeling the scene with Delores falling into their camp is still in the earlier timeline; a set up ruse by the writers. I think his quest for the maze may be to transfer his consciousness into a host so that he can be with her forever. It feels like they are setting William up to fall for her and then he will spend the rest of his days becoming the MiB trying to figure out how to join her in the park.

This would all need to be tied in with Arnold doing the same thing earlier, but instead of a single host he's managed to transfer into all hosts somehow and Ford messing with the reveries somehow triggers a mass awakening within all of the hosts. Murderous rampages ensue, Ford dies blah blah.

This idea of the maze intrigues me because there has to be some purpose to getting through it and all I can imagine is it's to test the visitors to find those that can withstand a transference. I doubt Ford even knows about it as Arnold probably built it in at the beginning. His drive to "discover" consciousness led him down a path similar to MiB where he wanted to be with a host that he pushed past the boundaries of AI into artificial life. Him and Ford probably fought over it and now the secret is hidden via this elaborate puzzle, which is the true motivation of the corporation, to find how to transfer consciousness.

Can't fucking believe i'm about to write this. Wooly has improved this thread.

Lanx said:

Yea, that scene and Dolores Campfire scene squashes the whitehat guy is MiB guy 30yrs later.

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I don't know, somehow I feel like it's another misdirect.

Woolygimp said:

Are we watching the same series? Did you miss episode 3 and the entire exposition about a character named Arnold who was absolutely obsessed with accomplishing true A.I. and making these machine sentient? Everything about human beings can be re-created. There's nothing unique about us; we are machines. It's a simple question of engineering.

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I don't think creativity is programmable.