Why all the Emulated EQ servers if EQ is free to play?

Elidroth_sl

shitlord
350
0
I'm curious why this is? I could understand it if people wanted the EQ + Kunark + Velious experience, but in all the emulators I see, none of them really give that. They seem more likely to give the "EQ + RoK + SoV, but change this cause that's stupid, and oh, I hated that thing, so change that, etc. etc. etc."

So without this turning into a trollfest, I'm curious what people think the reasoning is? And why do we need SO MANY DIFFERENT emu servers?

Oh, and I get the EQMac, old-school vibe. I do. I wish we could snap our fingers and make it happen.

And just in case people don't know who I am, I'm the Assistant Lead Designer on EQ. And I'm 100% seriously asking this question.
 

Vinyard_sl

shitlord
3,322
16
Don't those emulated servers usually have some kind of exp bonus applied to them? I haven't played on one in years, but I remember that being a perk.
 

Elidroth_sl

shitlord
350
0
Don't those emulated servers usually have some kind of exp bonus applied to them? I haven't played on one in years, but I remember that being a perk.
That's exactly my point. People say "I want oldschool EQ, but with XP bonus, and no hell levels, and no this, and no that, and give me free loot, etc, etc."

That's really a big part of why I'm asking.
 

Crell_sl

shitlord
133
1
Take EZserver. It's a fun server to dink around on once in awhile (and feel like a God), with a end game that can actually have some depth too it. (At least I think it did. Haven't touched it in years).

Others like The hidden forest or SoD give a "EQ feel", but bring an entirely new game.

And of course you got P99, the closest thing to a server that a lot of old school EQ players have been screaming for. (Sony won't give it to us, so someone took the initiative to create one as best as possible).

And a lot are just servers that people put together to test/learn, or to dink around with with a few friends.

Honestly it's just people wanting to play EQ, but play it in their own way.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
One reason that I see is some players want God mode. Ability to solo raids and see all the things they never got to.

Another big thing is custom content. Many emu use it.

Lastly emu is the only option for playing older content. You can say do it on live but the reality is that level 100s still farm it. If there are no new progression servers, those people usually go to emu.
 

Zithax

Molten Core Raider
51
13
Comparatively, classic EQ and modern EQLive are two totally different games. Anyone who played or is a fan of classic era EQ is going to log in to EQLive today and be bombarded by a million different gimmicky features introduced since their departure, and a vastly different gameworld. This is why the most popular emulated server is the closest approximation to classic anybody has been able to achieve outside of time-traveling to 1999. At a ~1.1k population during peak times no other emu comes close and this is even more impressive considering other servers allow multi boxing and P99 does not. It's (for the most part) the game those players are familiar with and enjoy. I think the bit about most emus altering their settings is just an ode to some amateur game designers or people having some fun screwing around and sharing it with the emu community, because that's what it has always been about.

Keep in mind I played only until Underfoot, but when I quit it felt like the game was almost unrecognizable compared to its original/early coveted classic form; and while I enjoyed some of the updates made to the game over time, I still like it the old way.

You are right though, most emu servers don't offer vanilla, and when one came along that did, it became a success.
 

Madikus

Knows nothing.
355
298
All of this is just my opinion and experiences. I consider myself a pretty die-hard EQ nerd, and some of my fondest gaming memories all came out of this world. I play on p99. I can tell you the reason I play it over live is for several reasons. My experience on live was in a very active raiding guild from launch to PoP.

  1. Less unused content - what I mean is that almost all areas of the world are populated.
  2. Smaller, tighter community - I played on Fippy from RoK - PoP and it had that feeling of everyone knowing everyone. When I came to play on Live, it was filled with bots and spammers and there was so much to do it was overwhelming, which eventually led me to play on Fippy, and ultimately P99.
  3. Guild Drama - no instancing means fights, backstabbing, bullies and white knights.
  4. Specifically for P99 - the exp is about as close to live as I can remember it, including penalties.
  5. I quit live during PoP, and came back a few years ago to find old zones changed (New Freeport sucks...seriously). I personally play EQ to enjoy a world that for me, was completed in Velious.


For many of us on p99, I'm sure it's a similar set of circumstances. I've made more friends in my 12 months on P99 than I have in any other MMO since EQ live (and I've played just about all of them, some for more time than I did EQ).

Theres something about starting over that for many of us, is just really fun. Having a smaller community (although I'll bet P99 has more active, unique players than some live servers), packed into less content means more confrontations, connections and experiences. There's less isolation than in current MMO's.

While there are many EMU servers, only P99 really has a large playerbase, and it's about as close to classic as any of them have ever been. I suspect this has lended largely to its success.
 

Crell_sl

shitlord
133
1
All of this is just my opinion and experiences. I consider myself a pretty die-hard EQ nerd, and some of my fondest gaming memories all came out of this world. I play on p99. I can tell you the reason I play it over live is for several reasons. My experience on live was in a very active raiding guild from launch to PoP.

  1. Less unused content - what I mean is that almost all areas of the world are populated.
  2. Smaller, tighter community - I played on Fippy from RoK - PoP and it had that feeling of everyone knowing everyone. When I came to play on Live, it was filled with bots and spammers and there was so much to do it was overwhelming, which eventually led me to play on Fippy, and ultimately P99.
  3. Guild Drama - no instancing means fights, backstabbing, bullies and white knights.
  4. Specifically for P99 - the exp is about as close to live as I can remember it, including penalties.
  5. I quit live during PoP, and came back a few years ago to find old zones changed (New Freeport sucks...seriously). I personally play EQ to enjoy a world that for me, was completed in Velious.


For many of us on p99, I'm sure it's a similar set of circumstances. I've made more friends in my 12 months on P99 than I have in any other MMO since EQ live (and I've played just about all of them, some for more time than I did EQ).

Theres something about starting over that for many of us, is just really fun. Having a smaller community (although I'll bet P99 has more active, unique players than some live servers), packed into less content means more confrontations, connections and experiences. There's less isolation than in current MMO's.

While there are many EMU servers, only P99 really has a large playerbase, and it's about as close to classic as any of them have ever been. I suspect this has lended largely to its success.
Since I started on p99 when it opened, I shortly joined one guild. And I have been in the same guild up to now, (and they are still going strong, I've just mostly retired). And now I have a good circle of people who I play other games with, or meet up with. That's a true quality that classic EQ brings.
 

Madikus

Knows nothing.
355
298
Since I started on p99 when it opened, I shortly joined one guild. And I have been in the same guild up to now, (and they are still going strong, I've just mostly retired). And now I have a good circle of people who I play other games with, or meet up with. That's a true quality that classic EQ brings.
Yea, that's another point I missed - lack of self-reliance. New games (EQLive included) remove the requirement to do things with other people, except for the very end-game. You couldn't really farm Quillmane solo, and you knew who your friends were by the people who camped spawn points and kill placeholders (just as an example).

My best friends to this day are people I met in EQ. I communicate with maybe 1 or two people I played every other MMO with since. And this coming from someone that games an average of 6 hours a day.
 

Jait

Molten Core Raider
5,035
5,317
A lot of folks stopped playing around PoP.

You logon to EQ for some old school fun and there's people everywhere in alien illusions with Expansion_46 gear that 9m hitpoints and every piece of armor glows a different color.

Emus give a more familiar experience, the same way old Rolling Stones fans haven't bought any of their new albums in 30 years.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,875
1,880
That's exactly my point. People say "I want oldschool EQ, but with XP bonus, and no hell levels, and no this, and no that, and give me free loot, etc, etc."

That's really a big part of why I'm asking.
Speaking as an EQEmulator developer...

I'm thinking the biggest problem with the EverQuest Emulator community is that they don't know what they want until they find what they want. And there is no answer to the question "Why do we need more than one emulated EverQuest server?" - it simply needs to support different playstyles between all players. People play the game their way and EQLive pidgeonholes you into a single vision of what EverQuest should be. People turn to multiple emulated servers for different types of gameplay in the same engine.

For the longest time, Elidroth, EQEmulator was on its last legs in 2006-2007 and we were all in a similar position to where EQ1 is right now, asking the same questions you are. What did people actually want?

I made a few servers, none of which held interest until I found a friend of mine, Ailia, who had an excellent idea of making stats simplified. INT increased damage, WIS increased healing, etc. We plopped that server in there as an experiment to hone our coding/database skills. I learned a lot through the experience that made me 'somewhat competent' as a designer, and a coder. Cue 2008 when ClassicEQ was launched and the influx of classic enthusiasts.

When ClassicEQ (now known as EQClassic) launched, people wanted to relive the glory days - this was apparent on the SOE EQ forums, where a 163-page thread was made - and if SOE wasn't going to bring them the product they wanted, they switched to EQEmulator. Myself included; I primarily got interested in EQEmulator development in 2004-2006 because I was dissatisfied with EQLive/EQ2 at that point and wanted to make my own game in an already existing engine that solved the things I hated. But see, here's the thing: I didn't know WHAT *I* hated about EQ1, only that the game was less than desirable to play.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with EQ1 is the amount of time it takes to get relevant, and the amount of content that is simply unused is abhorrently silly. If you cut EQ down to the zones that were only relevant, the client download would be somewhere around 800MB. That's a ton of content that you aren't using, a ton of content people have to voluntarily play.

That being said, my opinion differs from a majority of the EQEmulator community. There's three or four types of gameplay and henceforth server players/ops that exist in EQEmulator:

1) Classic Enthusiasts.These people are classic purists who are either EQMac refugees, people who quit around post-PoP era EQ due to the content direction it was going in, or people who simply want a challenging MMORPG to play in an environment that fosters community. Project 1999, Red99, EQClassic, and Roflon Zek fall under these categories.
2) Custom Content People.These people are coming to EQEmulator in search of making their own server, people who have been outcast from EQLive due to MQ2 bannings, or the occasional player who has played EverQuest in the past who are looking for something new and unique. Most of the people in this category are okay with having programs like MQ2 available, and tend to box 3-6 characters and sometimes more. EZ, THF, Storm Haven, and many other custom servers fall under this category.
3) EQLive/EverQuest purists- These people are primarily coming from EQLive to either contribute to the project of preserving EverQuest, or to have a boxing army that they are unable to perform on live due to SOE's crackdown on MacroQuest 2. A majority of these types box or develop for EQEmulator. PEQ/PEQMac/EQTitan fall under this category.
In terms of what players actually want? They want whatever they are most vocal about - currently, the numbers do not lie, players want Classic EQ with no boxing. This means that you need to remove all the content without any bells and whistles such as augments, downgrade the UI to the old one prior to the XML based UI, and essentially have the game in a pristine state as it was in 2001 with Velious, Kunark, and the original box set.

With a close second being custom servers that they can create their own armies and take down content with - I would say the community is split in that regard, some players like that kind of thing, and you need to support all types of players. Different players like different types of gameplay. I can't stand playing more than one character, so I play on servers that support playing one character only like Project 1999 and Enlightened Dark.

In terms of what EQLive should focus on? If it were me, I would recommend focusing on the ability for players to create their own content, run their own servers, and have the ability to share their creations with the world. If you provide players a toolset to do this (And I'm not talking about EQN where you're able to change the geometry; simply EverQuest mechanics and zones with a scripting engine + NPC placement system) and allow for players to play this content and share their content creations with other players, you'd essentially get rid of the need for a content development team. People could create that classic server themselves by using tools YOU provide to them. Perhaps allow completed zones to be sold for station cash. If there was continuous developer support and interaction between SOE and the developer community, I would guarantee that someone would utilize this. SOE has done the same with EQNext, EQEmulator has already done it to an extent, why can't it be done?
It would require a lot of development time to pull this off, however, It would certainly be profitable by SOE, and would breathe new life into the game in the same way EQEmulator did.

In short, players are unique and don't want one thing; they want lots of things that they can pick from whenever they please. In a sense, EQEmulator allows you, if you don't like the server you are playing on, to spend the time to correct the flaws about the server you are playing on and learn a bit about programming and database management in the process of doing so. That kind of openness ensures that players cannot get bored, and if they do, they can make something that isn't boring to them with the tools provided.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
@secrets- Good post but I disagree with one of your points. You try to label the different types of emu players and you break it down by current interest on the eq emulator site I assume. I would argue that there is an even greater segment of players that are in search of something that neither eq live or emu have been able to provide. That's the experience of reliving the past.

My example is the progression servers of which two sets have been launched to date. The numbers on those servers blew away anything eq emu ever had. These servers were flawed and players had to make many compromises, but thousands played.

I think if you're looking for what the vast majority of eq returnees want? Look no further than reliving the past. Don't say it's impossible because I'm obviously not speaking literally.

I mean that they want to progress through the game again with new communities but knowing what they know now. If any developer came close to that goal, they would have captured the audience.

The ultimate answer to the question why so many emu and not live is because they are unhappy with live and emu offers opportunity. The player is in control to make the game that Sony won't or can't.

My opinion is that no one but Sony can create what we want. No one will ever get the spawns and systems right. No one will ever program content past a certain point making progression a joke. Sony alone has the ability. Not to recreate everquest circa 1999 but to bring a server that is close to the true spirit of reliving the past.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
I'm curious why this is? I could understand it if people wanted the EQ + Kunark + Velious experience, but in all the emulators I see, none of them really give that. They seem more likely to give the "EQ + RoK + SoV, but change this cause that's stupid, and oh, I hated that thing, so change that, etc. etc. etc."

So without this turning into a trollfest, I'm curious what people think the reasoning is? And why do we need SO MANY DIFFERENT emu servers?

Oh, and I get the EQMac, old-school vibe. I do. I wish we could snap our fingers and make it happen.

And just in case people don't know who I am, I'm the Assistant Lead Designer on EQ. And I'm 100% seriously asking this question.
Post of the week for me.
I still play eq live on and off, recently had a bout of at least 9 months, currently 2 gold accounts. I started playing since march 99 and like about 90% of all the changes over time so theres your answer!

Only thing i mourn is that itemization has become a bit predictable though chasing after good augs through quests or drops has made it more interesting again.

Also, reduce timers on old raid content and do something about farmers cockblocking old school epic drops!

For the rest, thanks!
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
Quick aside Eldiroth - SoE have never sent out mail shots when they do double XP weekends, even for those of us who choose to receive mailshots. Your marketing department needs a wake up call. When I've gone back and subbed for a few months it's usually off the back of a double XP weekend and I've only read about them in passing on here.


As for EQLive v EMU - there's an elephant in the room that is either being overlooked or ignored - Mercs.


EQlive is a conundrum in that for years Mercs have steered players towards being solo but the majority of content in recent expansions is not geared towards that. You have the numbers, I don't, but I would guess that over the years the percentage of people progressing through current content is on a downward trajectory. There are two factors driving this :

i) Over time there are less end game players and less players grouping;

ii) Mercs encourage solo play.


It's too late to 'turn off' Mercs. You're in an impossible position. It's clear from some of the decisions that have been made that efforts are being made to steer people into grouping. It's probably seen a short term spike in numbers doing this due to Heroic characters being new, but it won't work medium and long term and in fact will be more damaging to player numbers.

The majority of the existing population prefer their play style. The harsh choice you need to make if EQ1 is to survive is to cater current content more towards boxing/Merc players.

And this is what the majority of EMUs cater for - casual play with a slice of nostalgia. Without Mercs.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,875
1,880
@secrets- Good post but I disagree with one of your points. You try to label the different types of emu players and you break it down by current interest on the eq emulator site I assume. I would argue that there is an even greater segment of players that are in search of something that neither eq live or emu have been able to provide. That's the experience of reliving the past.
Yes - I agree that point was a bit weak, I was trying to make it seem relevant to Elidroth had an idea of what he's actually seeing versus my opinion. I do think that people want the feeling they had in the past. The problem is, you start having people throw in their own ideas, and that's just something that group 1 cannot have, no matter what they beg for. SOE needs to do the same thing P99 is doing - they have the advantage to do so and I have been baffled as to why they haven't for years now. EQNext is great and all - but people want that authentic crappyness that is the Classic UI in the game they know and love.

Knowing what I know about the EQ1 client and networking protocol, I could (and many others could as well) navigate the source code and implement a client/server solution for classic gameplay based off of the current EQLive and archived EQMac codebases within a reasonable timeframe.

It wouldn't be that hard to do so based on how much the client has changed in 11 years (from a disassembly glance). The only hurdle that's stopping me right now is the lack of modern GPU support in DX8, the flaws in the old networking code from the EQMac era if I decided to use that windows client, and the missing serverside database/formulas/pathing that would imitate the game back then.

Literally, the only thing it seems like you'd have to do is backport exploit fixes to the EQMac server source code (Hobart did a majority of this in 2006, it would mainly be porting the anti-warp, inventory management, etc, to the server),

Implement the UdpConnection class (which is already partially done, the chatserver uses it for example):

94a6c10eb6.png


Fix up the database from the Mac era (pre-LoY -> Velious),

Port the code to use the libraries contained in EQGraphicsDX9.dll,

and that'd be it, really.

I actually have it envisioned in my head based off of the reverse engineering I did.

And you're completely right - SOE does hold all of that.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,875
1,880
Quick aside Eldiroth - SoE have never sent out mail shots when they do double XP weekends, even for those of us who choose to receive mailshots. Your marketing department needs a wake up call. When I've gone back and subbed for a few months it's usually off the back of a double XP weekend and I've only read about them in passing on here.


As for EQLive v EMU - there's an elephant in the room that is either being overlooked or ignored - Mercs.


EQlive is a conundrum in that for years Mercs have steered players towards being solo but the majority of content in recent expansions is not geared towards that. You have the numbers, I don't, but I would guess that over the years the percentage of people progressing through current content is on a downward trajectory. There are two factors driving this :

i) Over time there are less end game players and less players grouping;

ii) Mercs encourage solo play.


It's too late to 'turn off' Mercs. You're in an impossible position. It's clear from some of the decisions that have been made that efforts are being made to steer people into grouping. It's probably seen a short term spike in numbers doing this due to Heroic characters being new, but it won't work medium and long term and in fact will be more damaging to player numbers.

The majority of the existing population prefer their play style. The harsh choice you need to make if EQ1 is to survive is to cater current content more towards boxing/Merc players.

And this is what the majority of EMUs cater for - casual play with a slice of nostalgia. Without Mercs.
I think the biggest thing that's a problem with mercenaries is they can't wear the same gear players can, they can't be put into 'manual control' mode to the extent a player could be,, and you can't rely on their AI to do much other than completely overpower the content you are facing. That's a huge design flaw. I would rather see mercenaries function similar to EQEmu bots; they have their own gear, you can order them to cast specific buffs like enduring breath on you, you can have them port you around, you can gear them up, etc. Since SOE holds the key to this, SOE could take it a step further and take the Monster Shroud code and make it so you can 'shroud' anytime into a mercenary.

These are all cool ideas that would greatly mimic EQEmulator servers.

However, the problem is, you won't be able to compete with EQEmulator if you keep the way content development as it is right now; there are far too many people that are willing to create content for emulators than it is keeping a traditional development model with the content-on-rails approach. To completely reverse the effects of a content on rails approach, that would take a re-imagining and revamp of the entire game and its many expansions. Thus, embracing change instead of changing yourself is the way to go.
 

Chesire_sl

shitlord
331
1
I'm curious why this is? I could understand it if people wanted the EQ + Kunark + Velious experience, but in all the emulators I see, none of them really give that. They seem more likely to give the "EQ + RoK + SoV, but change this cause that's stupid, and oh, I hated that thing, so change that, etc. etc. etc."

So without this turning into a trollfest, I'm curious what people think the reasoning is? And why do we need SO MANY DIFFERENT emu servers?

Oh, and I get the EQMac, old-school vibe. I do. I wish we could snap our fingers and make it happen.

And just in case people don't know who I am, I'm the Assistant Lead Designer on EQ. And I'm 100% seriously asking this question.
Because they did not have 100 hours a month years ago to see high end content , and they do not have it now either. Stick to coding , human behavior is way beyond your limited intellects ability to decipher.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
I'm curious why this is? I could understand it if people wanted the EQ + Kunark + Velious experience, but in all the emulators I see, none of them really give that. They seem more likely to give the "EQ + RoK + SoV, but change this cause that's stupid, and oh, I hated that thing, so change that, etc. etc. etc."

So without this turning into a trollfest, I'm curious what people think the reasoning is? And why do we need SO MANY DIFFERENT emu servers?

Oh, and I get the EQMac, old-school vibe. I do. I wish we could snap our fingers and make it happen.

And just in case people don't know who I am, I'm the Assistant Lead Designer on EQ. And I'm 100% seriously asking this question.
EQEmu servers are very easy to setup and enable people to have a Neverwinger Nights <the Bioware one> vibe with configuring their own world. The thing is there are EMUs of just about every MMO. It's not just an EQ thing. It's just fun to create worlds. Isn't that sort of what SOE is aiming for with EQ Next to some degree?

As far as current EQ, if I want to play a game with mercenaries, content, and more solo focused I'll fire up SWTOR or TeSO. The new version of EQ with it's vast mudflation and focus away from it's original design has no appeal to me. Other games do it better, prettier, with more fun.

I play on P99 because it is community and group focused and it is akin to the original 1999 EQ experience, flaws and all. Plus, it's free and no hoops, all access, or management kneejerking.