Why all the Emulated EQ servers if EQ is free to play?

As Ghecko says, sandbox control, that was our original intent when making EQEmu, the project started long before the game was free to play and it sucked in a group at that point because EQ Live was overrun by numerous expansions and a mutating game that feels far from the original (the classic group). There are other groups in EQEMu such as the Dragon Soul server which is Chinese based and I think that is to allow a group of Chinese players to play together versus EQLive (not sure if there is some restriction or the latency is just too bad to use EQlive, but its semi-popular next to the P99 servers). I am not sure why you posed this question on rerolled (not that I have a problem with this forum) instead of on eqemu's forum, where I would assume you could get a lot of responses from eqemu players. There will also be a day that EQLive shuts down and we all know Sony's stance on server code (SEE: EQOA, among other shutdown MMO's).

I can tell you in a nutshell why several thousand people play emulated servers instead of EQ- despite the fact that EQ is free.

First, to much of the emu audience, the "free" part isn't even a factor. Let's start with the fact that most people playing emu servers are playing P99. Most people playing P99 could probably afford, and would gladly pay, $15 per month to play. The fact that emu servers are free is just a bonus. Take me for example. I would pay $15 per month to play a server like p99 but I wouldn't play EQ if they paidme$15 per month- EQ is simply not worth my time the way it is now.

Second, and more important, emu servers offer things that EQ doesn't. This seems so obvious that I'm surprised you even asked the question in the first place. For example,you simply cannot get the Vanilla to Velious experience with EQ Live now. Period. Not through SOE's half-assed attempts at progression servers or through any other non-emu means. Let's take a look at just a few of the emu servers for examples of other things you can't get with EQ Live:

P99- The server isn't perfect and there are concerns about "customer service" issues, but for the most part, Rogean and the guys did an amazing job recreating the Vanilla and Kunark experience (with Velious soon to follow). Again, SOE simply doesn't have anything similar to this experience.

SoD- While this server isn't truly "EQ", they have done outstanding things with EQ's assets. The level of talent the SoD team has is scary. They have solved problems that have plagued EQ Live and other emus for years through ingenious mechanics and innovative ideas. What they have done with character advancement/progression, NPC AI, itemization, grouping mechanics, and raid mechanics (just to name a few things) is undeniably impressive. Add to those things interesting story and lore, and you can see how they have managed to maintain a steady population of a few hundred donating playing foryearsnow.

EZ Server- As someone already mentioned, the guys at EZ server did a great job at letting you experience EQ at very high levels, but still manage to challenge you.

Guildwars- It's been a few years since Image/Devnoob have run a Guildwars server, but in the old days this was the best emu server hands down for me. They managed to create some pretty awesome pvp mechanics that included pvp points for kills, purchasable items for pvp points, and territory (like cities, camps, towers) that could be taken over by players for plat and buff bonuses. You could even buy and place NPC guards in territory you owned, so that other guilds had to kill your guards before they could take your territory.

Those are just four examples out of dozens of emu servers- all of which offer things that EQ Live doesn't.

Here's the thing. The question isn't why people play emu servers when EQ Live is free. The question is how SOE can have all the advantages they have and still manage to miss capturing a large portion of their target audience. It blows my mind really. Just imagine what some of those emu teams I mentioned could do with the technical infrastructure, the marketing power, and the resources of SOE... These guys have done the amazing things they have done with "duct tape and donations" while SOE, who has a legitimate claim to the IP and all the advantages, wonders what they are doing wrong.

Part of it is that the guys that run those emus are really, really passionate about what they are doing. There is no other explanation as to why they would sink uncountable hours into projects that amount to what is ostensibly zero pay. I really don't see that type of passion at SOE. It's not just because SOE is a "corporation" either. There are several game companies that are absolutely passionate about what they do. SOE on the other hand, has always been somewhat "bloodless", and I think it stems from a culture that trickles down from the upper ranks.

This speaks to the other issue- the failings of SOE itself. I'm going to give full disclosure here. In addition to being a long-time SOE customer, I'm a former Sigil employee. Part of my job at Sigil was to liaison with SOE on some of the infrastructure stuff. My job duties required that I spend some (not a lot) of time at the SOE offices. So, while I'm no expert on any of this stuff, I'm also not completely talking out of my ass. I'm also no SOE hater. Frankly, it's kind of hard to hate a company as bloodless and milquetoast as SOE. There were times in my early EQ days that IhatedVerant Interactive (but never enough to quit playing EQ), but I've never felt anything more fervent than casual indifference when it came to SOE. Plus, I know a few of the guys that work at SOE and they are good people.

That said, SOE as a company has an agonizing history of failing at several major things:

1. Failing to read and respond to customer interests and desires.
2. Failure to capitalize on inherently available advantages.
3. Failure to convert challenges into opportunities for growth (EQ Mac, Vanguard, etc).
4. Failure to innovate, think outside the box, and take risks.

To be honest, I could tell you several things you could do quickly and with minimal resources to improve your situation significantly, but I'm not going to bother because experience has taught me SOE is unlikely to do any of the things I would suggest (see numbers 1 and 4 above). The bottom line is that SOE has always been a company that has chosen "safe, rigid, and mediocre" over "risky, flexible, and innovative." Again, I don't say these things with any vitriol. In some ways being cautious has kept SOE alive where lots of other "risky, flexible, and innovative" companies have ceased to exist. But on the other hand, it should come as no surprise to you that a lot of people are pretty desperate for alternatives to the mediocrity that SOE offers.

So now that we've given you our explanations, as the Assistant Lead Designer on EQ, why do YOU think there are so many EQ emu servers if EQ is free to play?

I spent a lot of time on EZServer back around 2009-2011. Our guild at the time was the top tier one, although we only consisted of maybe 6-10 people all quad boxing. We were doing Anguish (although it's since been changed several times I believe) and it was fucking HARD. Like, legitimately MMO hard. We had some absolutely baller gear from it though. I'm sure my characters would still fair decently well if I came back. It's a very different game from classic EQ.

Arden_sl said:

Second, and more important, emu servers offer things that EQ doesn't. This seems so obvious that I'm surprised you even asked the question in the first place. For example,you simply cannot get the Vanilla to Velious experience with EQ Live now. Period. Not through SOE's half-assed attempts at progression servers or through any other non-emu means. Let's take a look at just a few of the emu servers for examples of other things you can't get with EQ Live:

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I hate to keep bringing up the progression servers (no I don't) but both times they launched, the population on emu took a massive hit. Half assed as they were, people flocked to them in droves. P99 suffers one major problem in that it will never be anything more than Classic-Velious. A stagnation server is appealing to some, but tried and tested, progression has more interest. I would love to see true progression from UI to mechanics but that is not reasonable. I have zero interest in playing a server that will stagnate.

It's not feasible to retro the game for Classic-Velious only to have it slowly change into current game. That kind of thinking is nothing more than a pipe dream. We should be trying to come up with real solutions and create a server that progresses closely to original but using the live client and tools.

Arden_sl said:

Here's the thing. The question isn't why people play emu servers when EQ Live is free. The question is how SOE can have all the advantages they have and still manage to miss capturing a large portion of their target audience. It blows my mind really. Just imagine what some of those emu teams I mentioned could do with the technical infrastructure, the marketing power, and the resources of SOE... These guys have done the amazing things they have done with "duct tape and donations" while SOE, who has a legitimate claim to the IP and all the advantages, wonders what they are doing wrong.

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This is something I never understood either. When was the last time a new server was opened? Or a new ruleset was put into play? I know the team is barebones and most development goes into future expansions, but I'd gladly pay for an "expansion" that included an "older" build of the game or even with just new servers/rulesets. Is the current model to just maintain the playerbase rather than attempt to bring old players back?

Frenzic_sl said:

I hate to keep bringing up the progression servers (no I don't) but both times they launched, the population on emu took a massive hit. Half assed as they were, people flocked to them in droves. P99 suffers one major problem in that it will never be anything more than Classic-Velious. A stagnation server is appealing to some, but tried and tested, progression has more interest. I would love to see true progression from UI to mechanics but that is not reasonable. I have zero interest in playing a server that will stagnate.

It's not feasible to retro the game for Classic-Velious only to have it slowly change into current game. That kind of thinking is nothing more than a pipe dream. We should be trying to come up with real solutions and create a server that progresses closely to original but using the live client and tools.

Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting, but I agree with you entirely that both P99 and EQ Live progression have their own problems. For the record I don't play P99 and haven't in some time, but it doesn't change the fact that there is great demand for an "early EQ" server done right.

There is a relatively simple solution to the "early EQ progression" problems that neither P99 or EQ Live is addressing right now. I would love to give SOE or someone else my money to do it right.

Elidroth_sl said:

That's easy. EQ as it is now, is not giving those players seeking out the EMU community what they're looking for.

As for being safe, vs risky, flexible, and innovative, I would counter with.. It's easy to risk that when you've got nothing to lose. I don't say that to be dismissive at all of the efforts of the EMU guys. I ABSOLUTELY respect the work they've done. But if they go risky, and it falls flat on its face, they've lost nothing but their spare time and effort. Here, we lose jobs, people lose income, and so forth. SOE is very much a business, and can't afford to be cavalier with changes/overhauls to their products. There is a lot we on the team would love to do with EQ. Lots of risky and innovative things, but we have to be VERY careful of our existing player base, most of whom seem unflappably resistant to any change at all.

Appreciate the feedback though. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for (minus one troll).

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I understand what you are saying. But I wasn't referring to emu developers when I was talking about being risky and innovative. The only thing they risk is time. I was talking about other AAA game companies that manage to be risky and innovate and still have the same constraints SOE has.

Anyway, SOE has a right to run their company any way they see fit. Sure I'd like to see them make some smart, innovative changes that add to their existing product choices without alienating their current player base, but that is their decision.

I just think the old classic Norrath is a virtual world that I enjoy escaping to. It's not about the race to burn content for me, it's a world that's alive and has complete replayability with a great social experience.
I haven't played official servers since EQMac was shut down. I'd play and pay for a classic through velious live server. I miss the old EQ world enough to have even contributed to P99 with hundreds of hours of work.

Arden_sl said:

I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting, but I agree with you entirely that both P99 and EQ Live progression have their own problems. For the record I don't play P99 and haven't in some time, but it doesn't change the fact that there is great demand for an "early EQ" server done right.

There is a relatively simple solution to the "early EQ progression" problems that neither P99 or EQ Live is addressing right now. I would love to give SOE or someone else my money to do it right.

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My suggestion is pretty clear, I've posted it a few times now. You say that the solution is simple, I wonder if your solution would solve my problem. Care to elaborate on the solution?

because live EQ is a single player game.

Your 3 character 3 merc groups? One player boxing.

Frenzic_sl said:

My suggestion is pretty clear, I've posted it a few times now. You say that the solution is simple, I wonder if your solution would solve my problem. Care to elaborate on the solution?

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First let me see if I understand what you are saying: You don't like P99 because the expansions stop at Velious? Are you saying you want them to stop at a different point? You also mention P99 as stagnant. Do you mean that it is stagnant because once it reaches Velious you can't go through the Vanilla-Kunark-Velious progression again?

You say you want to "create a server that progresses closely to original but using the live client and tools". By "Live client and tools" do you mean the current Live DB and mechanics? Or do you mean that the progression server is run and CSR staffed by SOE?

Quineloe_sl said:

because live EQ is a single player game.

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^

I don't ever play EMU's, but if there were a case to be made, I would start here. Somewhere around 2004 and since, MMO's forgot the 2nd 'M'. Nothing beats working with other people through challenging content to achieve and advance.

Arden_sl said:

First let me see if I understand what you are saying: You don't like P99 because the expansions stop at Velious? Are you saying you want them to stop at a different point? You also mention P99 as stagnant. Do you mean that it is stagnant because once it reaches Velious you can't go through the Vanilla-Kunark-Velious progression again?

You say you want to "create a server that progresses closely to original but using the live client and tools". By "Live client and tools" do you mean the current Live DB and mechanics? Or do you mean that the progression server is run and CSR staffed by SOE?

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Don't like project 1999 for two major reasons. The owners and Gms act like pompous bitches and the server will stop at Velious and never go any further. What I want is progression that does not stop at any point. P99 is stagnant because it will always be classic through velious and never see any new expansions.

I want it run by SoE with their database and client, but make an attempt to get it as close to how it was as possible. We don't need to be using the 1999 UI for it to feel close to it. I think SoE can do quiet a lot if they devoted resources to it, that's always been the issue I think.

Elidroth_sl said:

That's easy. EQ as it is now, is not giving those players seeking out the EMU community what they're looking for.

As for being safe, vs risky, flexible, and innovative, I would counter with.. It's easy to risk that when you've got nothing to lose. I don't say that to be dismissive at all of the efforts of the EMU guys. I ABSOLUTELY respect the work they've done. But if they go risky, and it falls flat on its face, they've lost nothing but their spare time and effort. Here, we lose jobs, people lose income, and so forth. SOE is very much a business, and can't afford to be cavalier with changes/overhauls to their products. There is a lot we on the team would love to do with EQ. Lots of risky and innovative things, but we have to be VERY careful of our existing player base, most of whom seem unflappably resistant to any change at all.

Appreciate the feedback though. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for (minus one troll).

Click to expand...

First, I will say that my time spent on multiple Emu servers over the years has had ZERO to do with cost of EQLive sub. Regardless what game people play, they will pay for quality content. It's a bit shocking honestly that you alluded to the cost having any bearing whatsoever. It just just reinforces the perception of absolute disconnect with the EQ playerbase.

As to your comments above re playing it safe to keep people employed. Yes, it has resulted in a bland boring, hyperinflated, alien world nonsense, single player game. I can't understand why you (SoE) can not make multiple ruleset servers, unique servers, basically everything that EQEmu offers. Give players choice in play. The die hard current players will keep their current content and servers, but you can pull in literally thousands of new players by offering them a real P99 type experience. I would also add that most would be perfectly happy paying subs to keep away from the F2P Station Cash bullshit.