Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

Witoubo said:

After this example I agree with you Kolle, people aren"t going to be cut the slack they would have. Publishers wont write the "blank" checks based on a design document, some spin and a name. Games and experiences like VG are all part of the genre growing up to where there are realistic expectations and development cycles. Hopefully it doesn"t grow into the mutant that sports franchises has.

You would think after all the money that has been pissed away over the last 10 years the guys bankrolling this stuff would get wise. Doll out the cash based on milestones. Why sink 30 million into something if you spot a lemon at 5? In this regard I commend MGS.

Oh sorry, you didn"t get the instancing system done last month? Give us a good damned reason or we cut your funding and move onto the next shop that knows how to do it right. Oh the big bad "MMOs are hard to make" fairy stole your lunch money? Tough.

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VGs failures have nothing to do with IMO them rushing the game in fact Id bet that only constitutes maybe losing some subs here and here. I think at tops VG was/is only destined for about a at best 300k tops subs.

I dont see anything unseating WoW/TBC the game just has too much staying power hell if they get things rolling on Northrend expac then you got another garanteed year or 2 at the top right there. And with all the money rolling in they have to have a ton banked for future dev. that or they all probably drive ferraris and Im sure blizzards offices have gold tolate seats.

Obviously the dumbing down of the GENRE by WoW have made most MMO"s that are truly time consuming less appealing. I mean no offense all that extra market WoW has taken arent people that prolly would have enjoyed EQ originally either.

PS: blizzard I better get some god damn DK"s as a playable class lord knows it should have been a release class.

MetalNeo said:

VGs failures have nothing to do with IMO them rushing the game in fact Id bet that only constitutes maybe losing some subs here and here. I think at tops VG was/is only destined for about a at best300k tops subs.

I dont see anything unseating WoW/TBC the game just has too much staying power hell if they get things rolling on Northrend expac then you got another garanteed year or 2 at the top right there. And with all the money rolling in they have to have a ton banked for future dev. that or they all probably drive ferraris and Im sure blizzards offices have gold tolate seats.

Obviously the dumbing down of the GENRE by WoW have made most MMO"s that are truly time consuming less appealing. I mean no offense all that extra market WoW has taken arent people that prolly would have enjoyed EQ originally either.

PS: blizzard I better get some god damn DK"s as a playable class lord knows it should have been a release class.

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Actually, I think that"s about what Brad said he wanted...

Sithro said:

Actually, I think that"s about what Brad said he wanted...

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I also think he would probably rather have his testicles removed then to truly pursue making a game to cut into the mighty WoW player base.

But hey for that kind of dough who knows.

WoW is fun. Let"s take that one sentence and think about it a min. Ok now then let"s try this. VG is fun also. They are 2 entirely different games with totally different foundations and goals in mind. Why is it you say that VG, in order to be successful, has to have X amount of subs because WoW has X amount of subs? I thought the whole point of being termed a successful MMO or not was based on whether or not a game is fun. I have played and enjoyed both games. Why must the people who aren"t even playing the game always have to post in the negative about VG? I am really curious. Why does it matter so much to you that we like the game? Why does it matter so much to you that Brad comes here and posts fluff about his game? Why are you all so fanatical about putting the game down?

I know I"ve been posting like a prick here lately but I guess it"s just cause I am sick and tired of seeing the same people posting the same stuff over and over again. I"ve tried ignoring you all. I"ve tried not responding to it but when I see you convincing people not to even try the game it bugs the piss out of me. You, who don"t even play the fucking game, are talking so much trash about it that people who might try it are not cause they think you are right and the game is not worth playing, But you are so wrong. Yes the game is buggy. Yes they have nerfed the shit out of my class. But I keep playing every day. Why? because the game is fun. Plain and simple. If you ever enjoyed EQ1 at all you will enjoy VG.

Is it as easy as WoW? No it"s not but WoW was made for an audience that is a lot younger than most of us. While that is alright, and yes I know I"ve used it as an insult but I"m a dick most times as you all know, it is not a game for me. I like a more adult orientated game and VG is that. The people are generally more mature and there are not as many kids playing it which suits me just fine.

For all those who said my posts were keeping them from playing VG, well all I can tell you is that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. *shrugs* That sounds so childish as to be laughable. But hey w/e floats your boat.

One thing about VG i have absolutely loved is every pick up group i have been in has been great. Everyone knew exactly what to do, and i have had 0 dumbasses that didnt know how to play. I remember my first UBRS run, and wow, that shit was horrible.

Camerous said:

I know I"ve been posting like a prick here lately...

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Acknowledgement is the first step on the road to recovery.

kcxiv said:

One thing about VG i have absolutely loved is every pick up group i have been in has been great. Everyone knew exactly what to do, and i have had 0 dumbasses that didnt know how to play. I remember my first UBRS run, and wow, that shit was horrible.

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Yep yep. During beta I met some really, really skilled people. I haven"t done any pick-up groups since then since I was on the grind to 50, obviously. But I think a lot of old school gamers who "took an extended break" are returning. It is pretty awesome honestly

Sithro said:

Vanguard"s core is there. It has adventuring, crafting, and diplomacy. They need to work on fixing, and balancing that out while fixing these bugs (which I hear they"re doing pretty well at). No more promises, just work on finishing what you have.

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Well said.

Camerous said:

WoW is fun. Let"s take that one sentence and think about it a min. Ok now then let"s try this. VG is fun also. They are 2 entirely different games with totally different foundations and goals in mind. Why is it you say that VG, in order to be successful, has to have X amount of subs because WoW has X amount of subs? I thought the whole point of being termed a successful MMO or not was based on whether or not a game is fun. I have played and enjoyed both games. Why must the people who aren"t even playing the game always have to post in the negative about VG? I am really curious. Why does it matter so much to you that we like the game? Why does it matter so much to you that Brad comes here and posts fluff about his game? Why are you all so fanatical about putting the game down?

I know I"ve been posting like a prick here lately but I guess it"s just cause I am sick and tired of seeing the same people posting the same stuff over and over again. I"ve tried ignoring you all. I"ve tried not responding to it but when I see you convincing people not to even try the game it bugs the piss out of me. You, who don"t even play the fucking game, are talking so much trash about it that people who might try it are not cause they think you are right and the game is not worth playing, But you are so wrong. Yes the game is buggy. Yes they have nerfed the shit out of my class. But I keep playing every day. Why? because the game is fun. Plain and simple. If you ever enjoyed EQ1 at all you will enjoy VG.

Is it as easy as WoW? No it"s not but WoW was made for an audience that is a lot younger than most of us. While that is alright, and yes I know I"ve used it as an insult but I"m a dick most times as you all know, it is not a game for me. I like a more adult orientated game and VG is that. The people are generally more mature and there are not as many kids playing it which suits me just fine.

For all those who said my posts were keeping them from playing VG, well all I can tell you is that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. *shrugs* That sounds so childish as to be laughable. But hey w/e floats your boat.

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I definitly agree with ya.. I enjoy Vanguard, i"m not very hesterical about the game though. I hate having to deal with bugs that ive dealt with in Eq2/WoW it"s like repeating frustration again. I hate the fact it"s called 3rd gen also but thats about it.

I play a DK only lvl 19 almost 20 so my opinion doesn"t matter much.

My primary game is WoW raids imo are very innovative.. chess event like harry potter? Wizard of oz, R&J and little red riding hood -I"m really enjoying karazhan i must say.. =) Arena is very addicting. <-- feels like my old counter-strike days thinking of strats etc

As someone who hasn"t played the game, I can say I pretty much have a really strong urge to see it fail, or it at least not be as successful as those who have developed it thought they would be.

It strikes a cord in me when someone hypes up their product with all talk of "glory days" while also throwing about "Revolutionary ideas" when it seems that it"s just more of what appeals to the community. Is that a glory day? Is it revolutionary? Well, maybe.

I also have a very hard time listening to the people who do play complain about bugs that are absolutely insane that are not being fixed. I played EQ, and I played WoW, and if half of what people complain is bugged in VG is true it makes both games look completely and utterly godlike in how polished they were. Bugs in WoW piss me off more than I"d like to admit; Gms not being able to do anything anger me further. Exploits in EQ, cockblocks etc were stupid and annoying. But I"d have to say that the VG shit boggles me above all else.

I won"t speak for everyone but I"m anti VG without having ever played it because as you say, they "fluff" the product, without just saying: Ok, it"s fucked, we know it, we"re working on it, and then showing you the finished product. I mean, how do you justify a game being so abysmally run? In good conscience I can"t read a post from anyone connected to the game without heavy bias against them, or a preformed opinion that it"s just going to be more BS.

It"s awesome that you like it, and despite all the bugs and unfinished content etc that the stuff that is finished and does work is engrossing enough to keep you entertained, or at least keep you logging on, but I do know if I find even the slightest defect with something I"ve purchased I take it back and replace it, or get my money back. So paying for VG in it"s current state is a foreign concept. I"d really love to try it, but I can"t. And it has nothing to do with negative posters, it has to do with the people connected to the game who have nothing to post but what they think we "don"t get" or what they think we "need clarified" rather than just going into a hard crackdown and fixing all the bugs.

Oh and also I heard rumors of some hefty nerfs to abilities, and I think I literally said WTF? out loud, when I then read the very small amount of bugs fixed. /rolls eyes

LadyVex said:

As someone who hasn"t played the game, I can say I pretty much have a really strong urge to see it fail, or it at least not be as successful as those who have developed it thought they would be.

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Well, after reading that I would say you absolutely made the right decision not to play. If you feel that strongly having never played it, I"d truely worry about your health if you did. Stay far away, in fact, I wouldnt even read these threads if I were you!

Dashal said:

Well, after reading that I would say you absolutely made the right decision not to play. If you feel that strongly having never played it, I"d truely worry about your health if you did. Stay far away, in fact, I wouldnt even read these threads if I were you!

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I heart people who take one sentence out of a post, quote it, and use it as the basis for an incredibly thoughtful, insightful and accurate portrayal of someone"s complete mindset whilst disregarding the entire rest of the post which explains one"s reasoning thereby attempting to make themselves more versed in current claims than their neighbor.

Brav-fucking-o.

I quite clearly emphasized that I"d like to see it fail just so the corporate douchebags get a loud wake-up call on just what and what not their customers will take. For that reason I won"t play it because I could never imagine myself giving in to a game where no one gives a shit about your enjoyment of gameplay.

If you want to give me a different portrayal, you are more than welcome to, but until then, my post was on topic, and yours was just fucking retarded.

LadyVex said:

I heart people who take one sentence out of a post, quote it, and use it as the basis for an incredibly thoughtful, insightful and accurate portrayal of someone"s complete mindset whilst disregarding the entire rest of the post which explains one"s reasoning thereby attempting to make themselves more versed in current claims than their neighbor.

Brav-fucking-o.

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You are seriously dumb if you think you can judge a game by what hugely biased people post about it on a message board.

I am not defending Vanguard, I tried it on the PvE servers and didn"t like it, I might give it a go if an item loot PvP server comes up, but if you think you can get a decent idea of the game from message board antics you are probably beyond redemption.

Make up your own mind, "wishing for a game to fail" because you hated the horrible marketing spin is extremly petty and spiteful. I will admit though that the PR for Vanguard was pretty horrible, and gave a completely biased and wrong idea of the game.

LadyVex said:

stuff

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I dont get it. Sure it was hyped. But that hype had been fucking destroyed before it went retail. We all knew what we were getting. Whats the big deal? I reckon the hype of "3rd generation" is worthy. If only it were more finished. But we all know that line and we knew that before it went retail. So whtas the big deal?

LadyVex said:

I heart people who take one sentence out of a post, quote it, and use it as the basis for an incredibly thoughtful, insightful and accurate portrayal of someone"s complete mindset whilst disregarding the entire rest of the post which explains one"s reasoning thereby attempting to make themselves more versed in current claims than their neighbor.

Brav-fucking-o.

I quite clearly emphasized that I"d like to see it fail just so the corporate douchebags get a loud wake-up call on just what and what not their customers will take. For that reason I won"t play it because I could never imagine myself giving in to a game where no one gives a shit about your enjoyment of gameplay.

If you want to give me a different portrayal, you are more than welcome to, but until then, my post was on topic, and yours was just fucking retarded.

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I read it all, and I wasnt trying to be too much of a prick there. I didnt quote it all because it was long and it annoys me when people quote big posts in there entirety. However I could have taken any portion of your post and it applies. That was a rant about a game you havent tried, which is fine, but thats what it was.

I mean, I kind of see your point, it"s valid to say you wont buy VG because of the state it"s in. I have a lot of patience but Vanguard bugs are wearing on me. I think you go way over the top though, especially now with the corporate douchebags and nobody cares about my enjoyment bit.

Anyway if WoW stresses you, I"d seriously go console gaming. It sounds like you are expecting single player PS2 performance in terms of bug free, in an MMO. That"s not very likely to happen any time soon.

Sithro said:

Actually, I think that"s about what Brad said he wanted...

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Did Brad say that he was looking for minimum 300k subs? I"m sorry but I have a hard time believing that any dev with some pride wouldn"t be shooting for "as many subs as my game"s success allows".

Did you read Brad"s wall of text? He laments on and on about how people are pigeonholing his game as "hardcore" or "tedious" but that in reality, VG is really about everyone. It"s meant to appeal to hardcore, core and casual. If that is the case, and its a solid quality game, and MOST importantly - its FUN - why could it *not* garner 1 million subs? Any please don"t use the tired bullshit excuse of Sigil not having a big name, because positive word of mouth in the gaming community, quite frankly, does wonders.

MetalNeo said:

I also think he would probably rather have his testicles removed then to truly pursue making a game to cut into the mighty WoW player base.

But hey for that kind of dough who knows.

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I expect this kind of silly thinking from typical posters, but if Brad actually thinks this way then VG is doomed.

Devs need to think outside the box with regards to their games and quit trying to categorize and label so much. Focus on making a game that is fun, WORKS and draws people in. It is really so simple and yet so many devs miss this tiny but ever so crucial point.

On a somewhat related note - from reading Brad"s posts I see a lot of excuses but really not much in the way of apology. A little "hey guys I"m sorry we fucked this up so badly, but thanks for your patronage" would probably be appreciated by the new investors of VG.

No, it wasn"t a rant about the game, but more in how it was handled, and is being handled. The topic of the thread was why was there such rage? For me it lies in the fact that they quite clearly do not listen to their player base. I very rarely read the long biased threads unless they are specifically pointed out to me, I do however read the long threads of bugs, badly working systems, unfinished content, non-working quests, easily exploitable areas and the like.

What does that say to me? Personally it says to me that they don"t particularly give a fuck. Push out the content to make a buck and see how long they can ride the train before too many of their community throw up their hands in frustration and wonder why they throw their money at the game.

The one positive thing I can say about it is that it MUST have something good to it, if despite all of the things listed people still play it.

I really wanted to try VG. For it"s hyped prospects of bringing back the glory days of EQ, I wanted to give it a spin. So every once in a while I browse the boards and see what"s the latest, and whether or not it looks like they"re putting effort into it, and if I don"t see it, I shrug. I don"t see a good amount of effort into fixing what needs to be fixed, or in taking care of the little bits that mean so much at the end of the day to the people who pay to play. It just spells trouble. If they don"t care so soon after launch, or at least don"t appear to care, when do they start caring?

The only posts I"ve really read on this thread are those by the officials who have come by, and it really is just a smoke screen. The bugs and the other crap that make the game hard to play were glossed over, in favor of telling me what I apparently didn"t understand about the game.

Beyond redemption? It"s possible. But I do know before ponying up any amount of cash I better damn well feel good about throwing some money on the table and with VG I don"t, it"s really that simple. I"d love to see them take some kind of hard hit that makes them go, woah nelly, we MIGHT want to address these class issues, or these bugs, or these non-working quests. I"d like to tell you that the majority of my info comes from heavily biased posts but it"s not the case. It"s mostly the official or, "people in the know" posts that have me so against VG and so unwilling to even try it.

Coming from a heavy RP background, and having played most MMOs since UO, the fact that everyone I"ve ever gamed with online has stayed away from VG says something to me as well. I"ll come back in two months and see if the little shit is taken care of, or if they"ve even acknowledged it. And I"m still waiting for someone to "show me the light". So far since my post I"ve just been told I"m stupid to not want to try a game that is practically broken on release.

kcxiv said:

One thing about VG i have absolutely loved is every pick up group i have been in has been great. Everyone knew exactly what to do, and i have had 0 dumbasses that didnt know how to play. I remember my first UBRS run, and wow, that shit was horrible.

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I"d agree that , in general, the skill level in a random PUG is definitely higher in VG than in WoW. That said, I"ve been grouped with a few retards in VG thus far, they"re out there ... unfortunately.

But yes, overall, PUGs are much better in VG and mostly I"ve had very good experiences.

On a different note. One thing to keep in mind about sub numbers etc. is a few things. First, VG may build some momentum (or it may not), but not all sucessful titles start out with the bang WoW did. Second, VG launched very close to TBC. Sure, the games don"t share the exact same appeal but you have people who may try VG at some point once they grow tired of TBC. Had VG launched either well before (or after) TBC, I would guess we"d see more subs right now.

But the main thing that has hurt subs, in my estimate, is the system requirements. You need a very beefy system to run the game anytwhere near its potential graphically, and even then, you may experience performance issues.

For example, Sunday evening in Trengal Keep it got so bad for me framerate wise, that I had to switch to "highest performance" and /flush a few times before i could get a framerate above 3 FPS (it improved to about 20, which is acceptable but not great). Granted, TK was packed at the time but still, this is on a box with a 8800GTS video card, dual core chip and 2 gigs ram and a raptor hard drive.

Bottom line is, a lot of people don"t even have the computer to run this game right now. Within the next year or so, that may change as people upgrade systems .... and we may see subs increase as this happens.

I"ve been playing Vanguard quite a bit and am having a really good time with it. I"ve had some minor problem with bugs and such, but nothing major really. It started out with pretty nasty performance (beta) and has gotten tons better, but even then, I could have lived with the fps I was getting (though the hitching and animation synching would have been a different story).

However, that doesn"t mean that I think companies should be able to release games far too early and be able to get away with it. Brad keeps saying, "a couple of months early" in his posts, and I suppose that if the game would have advanced as fast in those two extra months as it did in the last month before release, then maybe... but to say that I"m skeptical is an understatement (I know he"s downplaying the time needed, but it irks me because I feel like I"ve read that comment in like 90% of his most recent 50 posts).

I really have to wonder (I"m sincerely curious) what was going on in the company during their dev time to cause them to have results like this, and I really can"t swallow the "zomg, mmos are hard!" line any more. I mean, if any team in the world should know what it takes to roll out an mmo, it was this one, and yet, this is what we get? Its not the big things that get to me. I can understand big things. "It took too long." "Oh shit! We didn"t think that would happen!" etc. etc. I can accept big fuckups as being legitamate errors more easily than say, a non-working auction house search feature. How do you miss that one? That sounds pretty fucking fundamental to me. Sure, it was fixed pretty quickly (although there still isn"t a search filter for 2h weapons), but wtf wasn"t it there? Why release a game with crazy customization sliders ala swg, but then only give 4 different hair and face options? Wtf doesn"t it know what character I played last and autoselect it? Why can"t I see how many points I"ve dumped into each stat and what the current cap is? So many things like that just reek of some shit being dumped in as quick mockups for testing and then utterly forgotten about.

Also, would it really be that hard for an actual human (not the same one) to go through every quest at least one time before a game releases? And would it really be that hard for one person (the same one, and preferably one with some decision making authority) to spend a long weekend killing a few mobs of varying difficulty with each class at 10 level increments? I almost cannot believe that these simple things are not being done, but then, I completely cannot believe that we would see some of the problems we"ve seen if they were being done.

Dashal said:

I read it all, and I wasnt trying to be too much of a prick there. I didnt quote it all because it was long and it annoys me when people quote big posts in there entirety. However I could have taken any portion of your post and it applies. That was a rant about a game you havent tried, which is fine, but thats what it was.

I mean, I kind of see your point, it"s valid to say you wont buy VG because of the state it"s in. I have a lot of patience but Vanguard bugs are wearing on me. I think you go way over the top though, especially now with the corporate douchebags and nobody cares about my enjoyment bit.

Anyway if WoW stresses you, I"d seriously go console gaming. It sounds like you are expecting single player PS2 performance in terms of bug free, in an MMO. That"s not very likely to happen any time soon.

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Wow doesn"t stress me, it"s just bugs that have been labeled, identified, known about for months that aren"t addressed or even acknowledged. I"m really not trying to sound all conspiracy theory, but anytime there"s a fairly giant bug or a myriad of them and it"s not taken care of or at least "in the works", I wonder why it"s not. With WoW my theory is that they have so many subs the people affected by the particular bug probably isn"t enough that it"s going to screw your earnings enough so why put in the time to fix it? I could be way off base, but man, everytime I think about fucking around in ZG I remember the Edge of Madness has been broken since November and then it just ticks me off.

And funnily enough, I know you said PS2 but I bought NWN2 and man, single player MMO on the PC is so freaking buggy. I stopped playing after I got the githzerai because everytime I started a new segment I"d have to look it up online and make sure I did it correctly so it wouldn"t bug out on me and force me to start over at some gigantic far away point.