Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

LadyVex said:

I"ll come back in two months and see if the little shit is taken care of, or if they"ve even acknowledged it. And I"m still waiting for someone to "show me the light". So far since my post I"ve just been told I"m stupid to not want to try a game that is practically broken on release.

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I could care less if you ever play VG, so I"m not trying to convince you to try it.

That said, your characterization of the game being "practically broken on release" is not accurate. The game is very playable, and has been from launch. yes, there were problems, are problems, and there still are some bugs, broken abilities, and needed balancing but that"s the case with every game of this type ever launched. Sure some games, like WoW, were in much better shape at launch no doubt but even WoW had significant issues at launch.

I"m not in any way apologizing for the state of VG. But the point is there are so many superlatives being thrown around on these threads that the "truth" gets lost in all the exaggerations. The state of the game is somewhere between the statements of the fanbois and the haters .... lol.

I wouldn"t say VG has failed since *if the game worked* it"s pretty much what it was designed to be. However the implementation of that design is flawed in that there are bugs, glitches and some hefty balance changes still going on.

That said, a more pertinent question might be "given perfect implementation, how many people would want to play this game?" Would there be 500k subscribers right now if there were no bugs in the game and all the balancing was finished? This might be a fundamental hurdle for Vanguard, they could put development on hold for 3 months, fix all the issues, and simply discover that 100 - 150k (or whatever) is all the people they are ever going to get.

teneran said:

I could care less if you ever play VG, so I"m not trying to convince you to try it.

That said, your characterization of the game being "practically broken on release" is not accurate. The game is very playable, and has been from launch. yes, there were problems, are problems, and there still are some bugs, broken abilities, and needed balancing but that"s the case with every game of this type ever launched. Sure some games, like WoW, were in much better shape at launch no doubt but even WoW had significant issues at launch.

I"m not in any way apologizing for the state of VG. But the point is there are so many superlatives being thrown around on these threads that the "truth" gets lost in all the exaggerations. The state of the game is somewhere between the statements of the fanbois and the haters .... lol.

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You"re right, I did come off badly.

It"s just the small things, like I mentioned. As someone earlier said, you can forgive big things being fucked, because well...that happens and it usually takes a big effort to fix it, or to code it in the first place. But little things that are broken, that should have been fixed, that it"s amazing they were ever broken in the first place...how do you reconcile that?

LadyVex said:

You"re right, I did come off badly.

It"s just the small things, like I mentioned. As someone earlier said, you can forgive big things being fucked, because well...that happens and it usually takes a big effort to fix it, or to code it in the first place. But little things that are broken, that should have been fixed, that it"s amazing they were ever broken in the first place...how do you reconcile that?

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You can"t be too idealistic about these games I think is the answer to your question. There"s a business reality to all this, unfortunately. VG launched too early because their publisher forced them to, right or wrong, for business reasons.

What you do as a consumer, is decide whether the product/service is worth the time, errfort, money etc. you put into it. Nice thing about VG and other games if often its possible to ty it briefly for free to get a feel for whether you"d like to take the plunge. For me, EQ2"s freee trial was great because after trying it I knew for sure I didnt want to play it.

Not a great answer i know but its the best real answer i know of.

teneran said:

You can"t be too idealistic about these games I think is the answer to your question. There"s a business reality to all this, unfortunately. VG launched too early because their publisher forced them to, right or wrong, for business reasons.

What you do as a consumer, is decide whether the product/service is worth the time, errfort, money etc. you put into it. Nice thing about VG and other games if often its possible to ty it briefly for free to get a feel for whether you"d like to take the plunge. For me, EQ2"s freee trial was great because after trying it I knew for sure I didnt want to play it.

Not a great answer i know but its the best real answer i know of.

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And that leads me to another train of thought.

If it were any of several other products, no one would waste their time or want to buy it knowing things didn"t work. Is it just because of what it is, that we"re so willing to look the other way for awhile at least, because these things are bound to not always be working correctly?

I know when my cable service goes out for a long period of time I call them up and find out wtf is going on and how they expect to pay me back for the two weeks of screwed up service I"ve been witness to, but in the case of games people seem way more forgiving.

Maybe I am too idealistic. CAN"T WE ALL JUST PLAY GAMES THAT ARE FULL OF GUM DROPS AND RAINBOWS??

LadyVex said:

stuff, stuff and more stuff

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Nerd rage at its finest.

Also, Comparing EQ"s polish 7-8 years after release, to Vanguard"s polish 1.5 months after release is asinine.

Most would probably say Vanguard is more polished 1.5 months after release than EQ was 6 months after release....

Alarion said:

Nerd rage at its finest.

Also, Comparing EQ"s polish 7-8 years after release, to Vanguard"s polish 1.5 months after release is asinine.

Most would probably say Vanguard is more polished 1.5 months after release than EQ was 6 months after release....

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E-thug outbursts at its finest.

See, I can make silly posts too.

Also, comparing EQ when it virtually set the trend and was the forerunner of most MMOs and the way we think of them to Vanguard who had the blueprints laid out for them and still can"t get it right is completely asinine as well.

I might fuck up the beef wellington dish the first time just seeing how it"s going to come out but I damned well better get it right if I"m staring at the god damn recipe.

LadyVex said:

E-thug outbursts at its finest.

See, I can make silly posts too.

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erm... methinks you have no clue what the term "e-thug" really means

Alarion said:

erm... methinks you have no clue what the term "e-thug" really means

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I"m pretty sure it refers to retards who post thinnly veiled insults just to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Oh shit, I was right:

From Urbandictionary-

"A person who acts hard and talks alot of shit online."

splok said:

I really have to wonder (I"m sincerely curious) what was going on in the company during their dev time to cause them to have results like this, and I really can"t swallow the "zomg, mmos are hard!" line any more. I mean, if any team in the world should know what it takes to roll out an mmo, it was this one, and yet, this is what we get?

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I think one of the main things that contributed to it is how many core systems got revamped multiple times or scrapped altogether. Combat went through several major revisions, from turn-based to super fast action. Harvesting used to be a clone of combat, where you "fought" the resource. Spending months on these systems only to change them a few months before release means that basically the game that was released was in beta less than half of the time beta was actually going on.

LadyVex said:

I"m pretty sure it refers to retards who post thinnly veiled insults just to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Oh shit, I was right:

From Urbandictionary-

"A person who acts hard and talks alot of shit online."

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LadyVex said:

No, it wasn"t a rant about the game, but more in how it was handled, and is being handled.The topic of the thread was why was there such rage? For me it lies in the fact that they quite clearly do not listen to their player base.I very rarely read the long biased threads unless they are specifically pointed out to me, I do however read the long threads of bugs, badly working systems, unfinished content, non-working quests, easily exploitable areas and the like.

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I never insulted. You, yourself stated you were posting "rage". Grow up.

Why don"t you get a buddy key from someone and try it? Maybe you will hate it 10 minutes after you try it, but at least you have personal experience with the subject matter, instead of relying on people who are posting on a forum famous for flaming the shit out of things.

Also, I am not comparing anything - you are.

VG released early, with plenty of bugs and half-finished implementations. It is however, playable and actually fun.

Alarion said:

I never insulted. You, yourself stated you were posting "rage". Grow up.

Why don"t you get a buddy key from someone and try it? Maybe you will hate it 10 minutes after you try it, but at least you have personal experience with the subject matter, instead of relying on people who are posting on a forum famous for flaming the shit out of things.

Also, I am not comparing anything - you are.

VG released early, with plenty of bugs and half-finished implementations. It is however, playable and actually fun.

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Yeah, its not for everyone though. It"s much more enjoyable for me... no game has any class as enjoyable as the Blood Mage... This class makes healing fun.

Alarion said:

I never insulted. You, yourself stated you were posting "rage". Grow up.

Why don"t you get a buddy key from someone and try it? Maybe you will hate it 10 minutes after you try it, but at least you have personal experience with the subject matter, instead of relying on people who are posting on a forum famous for flaming the shit out of things.

Also, I am not comparing anything - you are.

VG released early, with plenty of bugs and half-finished implementations. It is however, playable and actually fun.

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I"m pretty sure you didn"t read my post.

The biased threads I haven"t been privy to much. However, the threads detailing the amount of bugs in game, the unfinished content, the unbalancing of the classes, etc and more etc, I have been paying attention to. Unless people are completely lying when they take certain quests, detail how they are bugged, or why they are unobtainable, or certain aspects of classes, crafts, well then...

I won"t comment on how fun it is to play, or on playability, because I"ve not yet tried it, and this was something I had stated many times, that it does pique my interest to know that with the seemingly landsliding amount of small things that aren"t being worked people still play it.

I did however say I won"t try it until I feel like I will be getting my money"s worth.

But you know..that"s...that"s cool and all. Label it "nerd rage" and then call me asinine and insist I was the child that made the crack is you know...really awesome.

Man I am crabby in the mornings.

LadyVex said:

But you know..that"s...that"s cool and all. Label it "nerd rage" and then call me asinine and insist I was the child that made the crack is you know...really awesome.

Man I am crabby in the mornings.

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For real. Please, go get some coffee

I am not trying to start an argument. I don"t particularly like discussing things via heated arguments, rather casual debates.

As well, you are correct - I didn"t readallofallyour posts. I read enough to see that you were hoping the game fails, and drawing conclusions based on comments others have made. So yes, your posts sounded like the exact "nerd rage" the OP is talking about.

Please do realize that some people tend to overexaggerate things, especially when they are pissed off (as in the case of some of the negative posts). I fully realize they are not right-out lying about their problems.

Does VG have bugs, broken quests and unfinished content? Yes, yes it does. In fact, there are some of these items that piss me off to no end while playing. Like for example, the group bug where I get disconnected from my group because they are 2 chunks over and forces people to relog to fix it. Or how about the mobs in Ra"jin stronghold on the rooftops, who after aggrod and I jump down and run *out of the stronghold* can still attack me from 200+ meters away, and cast spells on me through at least 5 walls. Or maybe when I died, logged and lost my corpse and all my items - they were eventually returned - but I was NOT happy at the time.

So yes, it has its bugs and other problems. But, it"s still a fun game despite this.

I also remember bugs when WoW released. And I remember bugs when DAoC and EQ2 released. Though, DAoC was probably one of the best launches of an MMO thus far, wrt bugs, content and broken items.

edit: cause double negatives are fun

Alarion said:

For real. Please, go get some coffee

I am not trying to start an argument. I don"t particularly like discussing things via heated arguments, rather casual debates.

As well, you are correct - I didn"t not readallofallyour posts. I read enough to see that you were hoping the game fails, and drawing conclusions based on comments others have made. So yes, your posts sounded like the exact "nerd rage" the OP is talking about.

Please do realize that some people tend to overexaggerate things, especially when they are pissed off (as in the case of some of the negative posts). I fully realize they are not right-out lying about their problems.

Does VG have bugs, broken quests and unfinished content? Yes, yes it does. In fact, there are some of these items that piss me off to no end while playing. Like for example, the group bug where I get disconnected from my group because they are 2 chunks over and forces people to relog to fix it. Or how about the mobs in Ra"jin stronghold on the rooftops, who after aggrod and I jump down and run *out of the stronghold* can still attack me from 200+ meters away, and cast spells on me through at least 5 walls. Or maybe when I died, logged and lost my corpse and all my items - they were eventually returned - but I was NOT happy at the time.

So yes, it has its bugs and other problems. But, it"s still a fun game despite this.

I also remember bugs when WoW released. And I remember bugs when DAoC and EQ2 released. Though, DAoC was probably one of the best launches of an MMO thus far, wrt bugs, content and broken items.

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I agree. I never attempted to proclaim that VG sucked and had no playability, but a large part of what frustrates me the most about a game is the bugs. As an example while leveling my alt in Nagrand I came across a bugged npc and reported it, staying online and keeping the GM busy for an hour until he figured the problem out and why it was bugged. He could not offer me any solution so on a whim I abandoned the quest, relogged, logged back in, accepted the quest and voila, the quest was fixed.

I have a ton of angst against WoW for it"s stream of bugs as well; VG is not singled out. With WoW however, it was pretty dang polished on release and I was hooked enough that when I ran into bugs, it pissed me off for a bit but I kept playing, much like you still play VG.

Knowing ahead of time that there are bugs, and technically, bugs existing doesn"t bother me, but that they seem more occupied with telling the community how we"ve got it all wrong about the game instead of cracking down on the bugs, is what makes me not want to play.

And I"m on my second cup of coffee. ><

LadyVex said:

I have a ton of angst against WoW for it"s stream of bugs as well; VG is not singled out. With WoW however, it was pretty dang polished on release and I was hooked enough that when I ran into bugs, it pissed me off for a bit but I kept playing, much like you still play VG.

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Just a side note: WoW had the worst servers I"ve ever experienced in a MMORPG. And they were terrible for well over a year, with no real fixes or solutions offered (hell, look at how long it was before they even offered half-assed transfers).


As to the original topic: It"s because people feel the need to defend their tastes by shitting on other people"s tastes.

Were the WoW servers crappy or was it just that there were way too many people on them? Ran like ass for me in the begining but I assumed that was because it was too overcrowded.

It really depended on the server cluster you were on (they have multiple realms sharing a single DB server, if I remember correctly). You could have been on a low pop server & still had shitty performance due to another server on your cluster. On the other hand there were clusters that never had problems at all, which is why you see such wildly varying opinions on WoW"s server stability.

LadyVex said:

Knowing ahead of time that there are bugs, and technically, bugs existing doesn"t bother me, but that they seem more occupied with telling the community how we"ve got it all wrong about the game instead of cracking down on the bugs, is what makes me not want to play.

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Care to give some examples? This has not been my experience at all. All the bugs I report get fixed promptly and I have never had a dev give me the runaround.

teneran said:

You can"t be too idealistic about these games I think is the answer to your question. There"s a business reality to all this, unfortunately. VG launched too early because their publisher forced them to, right or wrong, for business reasons.

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That"s a wrong assumption in my opinion - it"s not the publisher who fucked up for pushing Vanguard to rls - Its Sigils fault because they wasted a good amount of their 5 year dev cycle...