Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

Druixx_foh

shitlord
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Gnome Eater said:
Why? Seriously, are you suggesting that WoW was too much fun without the tedium so people now won"t stand a slight bit of tedium?

Seriously, that"s a horribly stupid generalization that people who won"t put up with pain are "not worthy" of playing MMORPGs
Agreed x 10.

All these assertions that WoW was bad for the industry are ludicrous. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that there are MANY new titles being planned for the genre and the bar has been raised as far as expectations for polish and quality. Whether you like WoW or not, you cannot deny that the game is polished.

There will always be "uber hardcore 1337" games for those of you who get a chubby from death penalties, forced grouping, and arduous level grinds. Stop acting like the sky is falling and thinking you are better than everyone else because you like it hard. So does your girlfriend, btw.
 

Nazbuk_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
The only thing that was fucked was the vast minority of masochistic people who think tedium and frustration is "challenge".
It"s a huge lie. =)

I feel (and maybe not in this guys case) that the people who have more time than a life like the grind games because they can clearly out level those people who would rather see the light of day. This game gives a lot of people the gap that allows them to define hard core vs casual. They"re just putting a macho spin on what boils down to having little to no life.

Grats! we"ve got a game just for you!!
 

Naelael_foh

shitlord
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Didnt WoW have 80 million dollars and an unlimited development timeline for it? Wasent the Vanguard budget like 30 million? As far as I know their publisher also told them to release the game or no more funding. These WoW and Vanguard comparisons are out of line for a number of reasons really. Money being one, another being that it is a different type of game. I never liked WoW because quite honestly the game bored me to tears, Vanguard does not bore me at all. Different people like different things.

Anyways... Seeing as though I have seen Sigil devs and Brad imparticular publicly come down on SOE for forcing them to release the game early, I would imagine there is a lot of "I told you so" communications from Sigil to SOE. The game is fun. My hope is that they can sucessfuly get major bugs ironed out in a timley fashion, and come to some sort of compromise between the players like me who prefer a slower approach, and the players who prefer a quicker one without locking out either group. That would be a great compmise, and would also be quite an accomplishment IMO. Seems like they are on the right track... As long as this personal COH from anywhere in the game idea never goes live.
 

kcxiv_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
The only thing that was fucked was the vast minority of masochistic people who think tedium and frustration is e"challenge".
I never once said it was a challenge. I am also not a masochist.

In VG you actually meet people. At least i have by slower leveling and grouping. In WoW the whole time i played on Blackhand, i met maybe 3 people total that i actually chatted with when i logged online. In 34 level in VG i have met 2-3 times more people. People we ask to join our groups at night. To me thats how a MMO should be. Like people say though to each their own. My guild is enjoying themselves, and we are getting more and more old mmo buddies joining us and enjoying the game everyday.
 

kcxiv_foh

shitlord
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Nazbuk said:
It"s a huge lie. =)

I feel (and maybe not in this guys case) that the people who have more time than a life like the grind games because they can clearly out level those people who would rather see the light of day. This game gives a lot of people the gap that allows them to define hard core vs casual. They"re just putting a macho spin on what boils down to having little to no life.

Grats! we"ve got a game just for you!!
What your saying is a lie. I dont play 10 hours a day. I play and i have as you say " no life" If i wanted to be level 50 i would have been. Yet, i choose to play the game at a slow pace. I dont do diplomacy, i dont do tradeskilling. I just level. I log in at night, play for a few hours. Then i log and go to sleep. I know you want to make yourself sound "cool" with your post, but you failed.
 

redjunkopera_foh

shitlord
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Itzena said:
I don"t remember the last time I had to pay $30/m to play draughts and noughts & crosses, strangely enough.
MSN Games - Free Online Games

Just because you are bored with the content doesn"t mean there aren"t hundreds of thousands or millions of people who would still pay to play that kind of game.

My gf loves the "Kill x of x" quests... I"d imagine that a lot of people (probably the majority) are satisfied and will continue to be satisfied with the status quo.

What I don"t understand is this:

If you know you are going to drastically retool your game upon release... or know that the possiblity exists that you might have to... Why don"t you make your game super EZ-mode from launch.

-You garner the largest possible starting audience
-People will be more forgiving about bugs/incompletion of the game

This is the thing about hardcore gamers. As much as they bitch, they will eventually try your game out again to see if it still sucks, or at least so they have some cred whilst railing it on the popular MMO-forum of their choosing. If your launch scares away the core-hardcore side... they will come back eventually, because they are seeking a challenging game. If your game fails to capture the casual-core side it won"t be worth the fleeting effort they might be willing to apply and you won"t get them to take the chance even a first time.
 

Druixx_foh

shitlord
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kcxiv said:
I never once said it was a challenge. I am also not a masochist.

In VG you actually meet people. At least i have by slower leveling and grouping. In WoW the whole time i played on Blackhand, i met maybe 3 people total that i actually chatted with when i logged online. In 34 level in VG i have met 2-3 times more people. People we ask to join our groups at night. To me thats how a MMO should be. Like people say though to each their own. My guild is enjoying themselves, and we are getting more and more old mmo buddies joining us and enjoying the game everyday.
Why even post your experiences like this? Just because you didn"t make any friends, doesn"t mean other people don"t. In fact, my experiences are completely opposite. I have made friends in WoW that became real life friends (was in a guild formed from employees of the company I work for) and dozens of others that I have kept in touch with across multiple servers for 1-2 years now. So who is right? We both are.

If you didn"t enjoy WoW, great. But don"t insinuate that the game sucked because you never meet people in WoW. That is an absurd assumption based on your experience out of 8.5 million.
 

RunningDog_foh

shitlord
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Naelael said:
Didnt WoW have 80 million dollars and an unlimited development timeline for it? Wasent the Vanguard budget like 30 million? As far as I know their publisher also told them to release the game or no more funding. These WoW and Vanguard comparisons are out of line for a number of reasons really. Money being one, another being that it is a different type of game. I never liked WoW because quite honestly the game bored me to tears, Vanguard does not bore me at all. Different people like different things.

Anyways... Seeing as though I have seen Sigil devs and Brad imparticular publicly come down on SOE for forcing them to release the game early, I would imagine there is a lot of "I told you so" communications from Sigil to SOE...
It"s only the investors fault if they break their promises on funding or demand unreasonable changes to the design. If you say "I will deliver the software in 4 years" and 4 years later, having been funded, it"s not ready then it"s not the money men you should be looking at.

The blessing and the curse of WoW is that millions of MMO players now have expectations about quality. If that takes $80 million to match then so be it, people won"t settle for less - at least not in the same numbers.
 

Fury_foh

shitlord
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I"m pleased Brad is here trying to push his game still, but at the same time the message he"s pushing out sort of pisses me off. You market the game a certain way, and tell anyone who might not be too keen on those things that the game "might not be for you". But in the same breath complain because so many people are passing on the game because it released early, buggy, unstable, and with high computer requirements. You knew you had problems back in beta 2 (when I got invited) when you sent out that questionairre asking why people weren"t logging in and playing.

Spinning it now to look like VG is getting shafted by bad press and word of mouth seems a bit like sour grapes. But kudos for keeping people interested and talking about VG. When people stop caring is when you really need to start worrying. I see another VG thread with 1000 posts in it again soon.
 

Guzrog_foh

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Maxxius said:
Why should a stiff exp penalty be mandatory? I have never been a fan of death penalties. I always thought they were sadistic and actually deters people from fully exploring a game. I can live with the WOW type penalty since it is nothing more than a 10pct repair acceleration (a repair bill you can wind up paying even if you never died), but an exp loss penalty on top of that is just plain stupid. Always has been always will be. And if you try to argue that such penalties are minimal then why the hell even have them? To annoy people? To piss them off? To screw them when they go LD and come back dead? Aside from the sadistic game developer, I can"t imagine anyone jumping for joy anytime they lost exp through a death.
Elleffgee pretty much summed up my opinion on this one.

Elleffgee said:
I wanted to also comment on the discussion about death penalty in Vanguard. I think the current death penalty scheme is about right. The problem is when the penalty is too steep, most players don"t want to group in hard dungeons or go deep. That is where I like to play.

I think it"s mandatory in MMOGs now that players can at least get their corpse back with a stiff exp penalty after their group wipes at 3 A.M. There is nothing worse than trying to do a corpse run where everyone who was lucky enough to live through the evac mysteriously goes LD and leaves the naked players to recover their own corpses. So Vanguard offers a "safety net" for this - you can get your corpse back without a CR, but you"ll have to give back about a full hours exp if you do that. Sometimes it"s just worth the cost.

When the penalty for death is too harsh, I think most players just never use dungeons, and you end up with an game filled with bad players who never learn how to play. You all remember the type - the people in EQ who leveled up in the Overthere and other overland zones instead of in Chardok and Old Seb. People who level in dungeons are usually more highly skilled players than people who didn"t. When the death penalty is too steep, a great number of players will never take the risk of learning how to play in dungeons, and will suck at their class for the remainder of their time in that game. So I commend Sigil for giving players the incentive to suck less by having a reasonable death penalty.

Thanks.
 

MetalNeo_foh

shitlord
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RunningDog said:
It"s only the investors fault if they break their promises on funding or demand unreasonable changes to the design. If you say "I will deliver the software in 4 years" and 4 years later, having been funded, it"s not ready then it"s not the money men you should be looking at.

The blessing and the curse of WoW is that millions of MMO players now have expectations about quality. If that takes $80 million to match then so be it, people won"t settle for less - at least not in the same numbers.
If that was your $30 million put forth to develop a game Im sure you would probably have them release it before blessing them with $80 mil more and a longer budget.

Some of the peoples oponions about how much companies should spend to please them is just sick. Im sure they evaluated how much more they could spend and it was just wasnt feesable business wise.
 

Lyenae_foh

shitlord
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Naelael said:
Didnt WoW have 80 million dollars and an unlimited development timeline for it? Wasent the Vanguard budget like 30 million? As far as I know their publisher also told them to release the game or no more funding. These WoW and Vanguard comparisons are out of line for a number of reasons really. Money being one, another being that it is a different type of game. I never liked WoW because quite honestly the game bored me to tears, Vanguard does not bore me at all. Different people like different things.
Crying about budget is a fucking joke.

There are movies with a 15 million dollar budget that get A+ reviews, and movies with a 150 million dollar budget that shit the fucking bed and flat out suck.

It all comes down to

- Lack of Talent
- Mismanagement of Money
- Not designing within constraints.

Period. Don"t make any fucking excuses for them.
 

Druixx_foh

shitlord
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MetalNeo said:
If that was your $30 million put forth to develop a game Im sure you would probably have them release it before blessing them with $80 mil more and a longer budget.

Some of the peoples oponions about how much companies should spend to please them is just sick. Im sure they evaluated how much more they could spend and it was just wasnt feesable business wise.
I agree. I am positive there is more to the story that we don"t know on the situation between SOE and Sigil before release.

Its quite possible that SOE had already given Sigil a few extensions more than they wanted to or than were agreed upon.

It is also possible that SOE was fed up with the rate of progress that Sigil was making and put down an ultimatum to release when they did. There were tons of reports of GREAT strides in game stability, bug fixes, and content once the mad dash to the finish was before them. So in that case, I would applaud SOE for lighting a fire under their ass.

Whatever the reason, Sigil had plenty of dev time and plenty of budget to pull this off and get more subs than they have.
 

EmiliaEQ_foh

shitlord
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Tual said:
I welcomed the slower leveling, it actually gives you the chance to enjoy the content there is instead of the "lolz0r the game starts at the level cap" retardation.
Too bad 70% of the population are these "neet to hit 50" retards.

I"m 35 taking my time, i grinded like mad from 17 to 20 (root) and 29 to 32 (fireshield 2).

There a dozen spot with 32-38 on Thestra, i"ll outlevel most before i can find them.
Sad
 

Vinen

God is dead
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EmiliaEQ said:
Too bad 70% of the population are these "neet to hit 50" retards.

I"m 35 taking my time, i grinded like mad from 17 to 20 (root) and 29 to 32 (fireshield 2).

There a dozen spot with 32-38 on Thestra, i"ll outlevel most before i can find them.
Sad
I was leveling pretty slow then XP weekend tempted me
 

Dashal_foh

shitlord
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Lyenae said:
Crying about budget is a fucking joke.

There are movies with a 15 million dollar budget that get A+ reviews, and movies with a 150 million dollar budget that shit the fucking bed and flat out suck.

It all comes down to

- Lack of Talent
- Mismanagement of Money
- Not designing within constraints.

Period. Don"t make any fucking excuses for them.
By that logic WoW was extremely inefficient.
 

drtyrm

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,991
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Wha? WoW Development was inefficient how? They had a supremely structured beta, from what I have read and recall.

Your post makes no sense.
 

Stevon_foh

shitlord
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Aradune Mithara said:
We certainly did not forget that casual, core, and hard core players can and should co-exist in Vanguard. Originally we planned for 20% casual content, 60% core, and 20% raid. Turns out based on beta that we needed more casual and actually, especially at lower levels, there is a LOT more casual content than, say, group.

Now, that doesn"t mean we can"t make it more fun. I want to see more compelling areas for solo/casual players so it"s not so much about just grinding on 2 and 3 dot mobs. I get bored of that as well (although I am a group player mostly, but then I do log on and either can"t find a group, or they are too far away, or I don"t have a lot of time, at which point I solo mobs).

And no, people aren"t leaving left and right. Sales continue to grow and churn is very low (we just went through our first billing cycle where a lot of people had used up their first month (mostly the people who bought the game right away or soon after release). And, much to our happiness, we had relatively very few cancelations.

I"m not saying everything is hunky dory -- we have a LOT of work to do, both in fixing things and also adding new things, updating things, tweaking things. More so than we would have liked in that we had to launch a bit early, but the team is working extra hard to make up for that. They didn"t go on vacations or return to working regular hours after the game was released -- they kept on crunching and I"m very proud of the team -- they are extremely committed to Vanguard, love to play it (many more devs are playing the game than back when we released EQ, which is very helpful because we encounter issues or bugs ourselves or imbalances, etc. and that combined with feedback helps us fix things quicker). I know a bunch of devs who have level 20+ and even level 30+ characters (and at least one who is 40+).
Brad, the rub here is that Vanguard appeals to one type of player here, and that"s the player who can deal with (and enjoy) grinding. Or at least the feeling of such.

Vanguard has lost sight of what brought players to these games in the first place, escapism from the tedium of every day life. When the game starts mirroring the problems we have day to day, and itself becomes a drudgery, then we"re back at square one.

There"s a few things that are key, I think you"d agree, if a game like this is going to be appealing.

1. The player needs to feel empowered, heroic or whatever have you. If the player feels weak in relationship to the world around them then much of the emotional drive to play is gone.

2. The player should be able to play, productively, based on the players schedule not everyone elses. Here"s where Vanguard has a real problem. First, most players will form certain group attachments at some point (unless they simply hate or ineffective at dealing with others). In Vanguard if you end up falling behind your "friends" it"s very likely you will find it more and more difficult to find groups. And unfortunately grouping is THE most effective way to advance, bar none. The solution here is obvious, the game needs to provide more solo friendly content, if for nothing else than to help those left behind catch up.

3. Punishment is not motivating. Vanguard takes punishment to the next level. If you are failing an encounter, so solo or duo, and you want to escape... good luck. Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down. Then where does that leave you? With a corpse recovery (why this is back I"ll never understand) and exp loss. And a lot of frustration.

4. Bugs that lead to death... and the penalties that implies. So I end up dying due to issues out of my control. Talk about something that leads to a bad impression.

The reasons I left Vanguard are due to a combination of 1-3. Take a trip, come back a week or two later to find that the group you normally hook up with have passed you by. Now what to do. Well I guess I"ll need to form a pug....

What do pugs usually do? They disband in 45 minutes becuase someone "just doesn"t have time"... or they train themselves because that 1 unknown player just has to run out front... or they simply die over and over because that one key class isn"t good enough.

All of these things lead to players giving up out of frustration and being convinced that regaining lost time is not only overy difficult but it"s not worth it.

Personally I think the original "Vision" as stated in numerous marketing documents sounded right on. Unfortunately that was either purposefully misleading or somewhere in the process the message got garbled and warped into a vision that is applicacable to only the most vocal of the self-named "hardcore" players who think that "time" is equatable with "challenge" (when clearly they are not). There"s very very very few people who actually think grinding is fun, and right now it"s a grind.

Lastly, the whole idea that players and "normal" creatures/mobs should be relatively "equal" is absurd. There"s nothing heroic about that and that"s what these games are supposed to be about.
 

Druixx_foh

shitlord
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Dashal said:
By that logic WoW was extremely inefficient.
How do you figure?

World of Warcraft
$80 million dev budget (rumored) / 1.5 million subscribers (March 17, 2005; seeBlizzard Entertainment - Press Release) =$53.33 dev dollars per sub @ 3 months
vs.Vanguard
$30 million dev budget = 150,000 subscribers at best (no press releases, but is in the ballpark if not much less) =$200 dev dollars per sub @ 6+ weeks

Which company is inefficient??

Vanguard would have to pull ~515,000 more subs out of their ass to match that pace. We won"t even TALK about when WoW was released worldwide.
 

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
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Fury said:
You market the game a certain way, and tell anyone who might not be too keen on those things that the game "might not be for you". But in the same breath complain because so many people are passing on the game because it released early, buggy, unstable, and with high computer requirements. You knew you had problems back in beta 2 (when I got invited) when you sent out that questionairre asking why people weren"t logging in and playing.

Spinning it now to look like VG is getting shafted by bad press and word of mouth seems a bit like sour grapes.
I agree with this pretty much. What was being released and spoon-fed to the public was totally different from the reality in Beta. People got pissed when it was realized that Sigil was trying to obfuscate the issue, and the cry of "Just wait until the NDA is lifted" was passed around like a balloon at a Dead show. Then the NDA was lifted and a new round of complaints started up, with the response of "Wait until release, it"s still Beta after all!". Then release hit amidst a lot of nay saying, and then people were told to just give VG somemoretime.

Now, I"m not jumping those people that are playing VG happily, more power to you. But for those of you that do play, and cannot grasp why people refuse to purchase VG, let me try to say this as objectively as possible:

The last year of VG has been drama on top of drama on top of drama. Even with all the beta bs, people were willing to give VG some leeway at release, but VG was, predictably, not as ready as was claimed. Still, people bought VG and braced themselves for a few months of bugs and other issues. Yet, the drama hasn"t ceased, now you even have the station pass change and people wishing they hadn"t bought VG in the first place. Sigil is planning on a large ad campaign, but seriously, how much of VG"s history will that be able to counter? I also predict that something else will pop up within the next 6 months that will re-ignite the debates and drama, it is almost a given. The advertising won"t make up for all the problems, it can"t, but I still hope it helps out VG...because, imo, it needs all the help it can get (from a sales and reputation standpoint).

IMO the only chance VG had to be a "huge" success was an awesome release, or to be so awe inspiring that people would leave other games wholesale. Neither happened, and I seriously doubt VG will hit 500k. For Sigils sake, and the sake of those playing VG, I hope I am wrong. But as it stands now, it doesn"t seem to have garnered the image of being a "Must play" game as was hoped, and there are simply other games out there that people would rather play. I"m sure I could pay for it, play it, and have at least a modicum of enjoyment over the next year, but there are many other games I can do that in, and they appeal to me more than VG. And that isWITHOUTfactoring in the drama, rumors, bugs, vitriol and angst.

"Tanin no fukou wa mitsu no aji" , because I"m getting tired of seeing, and using myself, the term schadenfreude. I"d be lying if I said that didn"t factor into this, but unfortunately it does. A lot of people made dire predictions and were flamed for it (especially on the VG forums), but many were correct in a broader sense, if not on actual individual issues as well.

It almost seems like some people expect others to simply give VG a free pass, and to just forget all that has happened and go into VG blindly. Human nature being what it is, I seriously doubt that is going to happen on any large scale, especially when it involves forking money over to a game that has generated the divisions in the gaming community that VG has.